1 min per level spells and why they suck

[Saeviomagy]

Maybe true for clerics. Clerics have good hit points and a decent attack bonus to fall back on.

But definitely not for arcane casters. If wizards and sorcerors are dead weight in combat, nobody will play them. Sure, they've always been dead weight for the first few levels but there was always the promise of turning the tide of a battle with a single spell and being significant at higher levels. If that is removed from the class so that at level 17, the wizard's 9th level spell contributes about as much as a barbarian's full attack action to the battle, there won't be many wizards or sorcerors playing in 3.5e groups anymore. I don't think anyone's saying that wizards and sorcerors should be as good as fighters and barbarians in hand to hand. However, if by the time archers are dealing 70 points of damage per round (12th level or so) EVERY ROUND ALL DAY, wizard's can't do significantly better than that for one round per day, something is seriously wrong.

Tsk, tsk. Where did I say that mages should be dead weight? I merely said that they shouldn't be top dog.

As people have said, if all a cleric is is a walking wand of healing, there won't be many people lining up to play them.

Similarly, if all a wizard is is a walking repertoire of Rope Tricks, Teleports and Magnificent Mansions, people will take them as cohorts but won't play them.

So every player you know exists solely to kill monsters, is that supposed to be your point?

What is there stopping the wizard from taking fighter cohorts?

How does having a particular ability in a cohort really change anything?

If your game is anything more than "kill the monster in the next room!" over and over again, then wizards and clerics have no problems being viable characters. Fighters DO.

Anyway, the fighter is the only class that's SOL except for hitting stuff. Paladins have a good selection of social skills, detect evil, etc. Rangers have nearly as many skills as a rogue, and barbarians have quite a few skills (and plenty of wilderness stuff on their skill list).

And yet skills pale in comparison with spells.

Hide +20? Pah! Invisibility!
Climb/Jump +20? Pah! Spider climb! Levitate! Fly! Teleport!

Rage? Emotion! Prayer! Magic weapon! Stoneskin!

etc, etc.

 

[rangerjohn]

Ah! There we have it. You want a magicless world. Sounds boring to me, especially considering to balance it you have to remove most of the monster manual. Fighter against fighter is alright once in awhile, but campaign after campaign? No, thankyou.

 

[hong]

Ah! There we have it. You want a magicless world. Sounds boring to me, especially considering to balance it you have to remove most of the monster manual. Fighter against fighter is alright once in awhile, but campaign after campaign? No, thankyou.

The Dragonsfoot grognards do this better than you.


Hong "come back Gnarley_Bones, all is forgiven" Ooi

 

[haiiro]

The first two pages of this thread were great -- lots of useful commentary on an issue I hadn't thought all that much about.

Then the bickering started on page three. And continued into page four.

This is an interesting -- and clearly divisive -- issue. I for one would much prefer it if this thread didn't get closed, so the discussion can continue.

 

[Bismark]

I took one look at what people were doing with these spells and said, this is silly. For PCs to be constantly increasing their combat effectiveness for the entire day, while in no real danger while doing so, is simply boring. When you got to mid levels and higher, you would often see a group leave town with multiple-extended buffs cast the day before, so that they could also have full spells. That is ridiculous. When the big bad evil guy must be a spellcaster, so that he can match the party's always-on buffing, something's gotta change.

I just had to voice my agreement with this one. From the sounds of the boards I've read, it seemed like buffing for the day was almost a standard practice, along with the Magic Weapons and Greater Magic Weapons. My group never did this, not only because it seemed like a lot of bookkeeping, but because it just seemed...silly.

Sure, in a numbers sense, it's a good idea. Maybe it isn't unreasonable for someone who risks their life to go through the same ritual every morning of casting these spells. So while I think that's one of those things that is easy to say as a player, but is incredibly boring for the character, that's just opinion. Some people are very routine in their day to day habits.

But from a purely out of character aspect, it seemed boring, too. Same spells everyday, use them all to boost this and that, begin adventure. Make sure to cover all the bases beforehand. We never really bothered with that. A bull's strength was a cool thing to use once a combat, sometimes. But it did cost a whole action. I'm used to lower levels of magic campaigns too, which probably explains some of my bias.

Still, it did seem like a maximization of the rules, and not necessarily a sensible in character thing to do. And from the sounds of things, nearly everyone was doing it constantly.

Also, from the reactions of people I've read in this thread, if changing the duration of some second level spells will change the whole balance of the game? Then they were being used too much, or weren't balanced.

 

[rangerjohn]

Lets look at this from the other side. Your a fighter about to embark on an adventure, you put on your armor EVERY DAY. You ready your weapon of choice EVERY DAY. You pack food and rope and other neccasities, EVERY DAY. How boring.


Just so you know this is the only time I used such spells. If I was in town shopping or some such, were I did not expect danger no buffs. Going on an adventure thats another ball of wax. I also have never used anything but strength or Bull's strength in any edition of the game and not with all characters, but I'm not going to stop other people

 

[rangerjohn]

Also, from the reactions of people I've read in this thread, if changing the duration of some second level spells will change the whole balance of the game? Then they were being used too much, or weren't balanced.

So strength was unbalanced since it was introduced? It has always been 1hr/level.

 

[Bismark]

Lets look at this from the other side. Your a fighter about to embark on an adventure, you put on your armor EVERY DAY. You ready your weapon of choice EVERY DAY. You pack food and rope and other neccasities, EVERY DAY. How boring.


Just so you know this is the only time I used such spells. If I was in town shopping or some such, were I did not expect danger no buffs. Going on an adventure thats another ball of wax. I also have never used anything but strength or Bull's strength in any edition of the game and not with all characters, but I'm not going to stop other people

Who's to say that casting the same spells every day is equivalent to putting on armor every day? Wouldn't memorizing spells every day be more in the same vein?

If I had to make an analogy, I'd compare it to drawing weapons. Sure, you could walk around with your weapons drawn all the time, at least outside of cities or other places where such behaviour might be illegal. But I wouldn't, even though it would give me an advantage in terms of pure mechanics. I wouldn't take an action to draw my weapon when combat started.

You can probably justify it either way, if your character is the type to prepare in advance that much, and if you play that way. I don't, and I like the change for that reason. It really won't change my game that much, but I like it better in principle.

 

[rangerjohn]

To ansewer your question, yes, I normally have my sword out. For a two practical reasons, one as you said it saves an action when combat occurs. Two when I get a magic sword it becomes my light source, not shedding much light in a sheath.

 

[Number47]

To ansewer your question, yes, I normally have my sword out. For a two practical reasons, one as you said it saves an action when combat occurs. Two when I get a magic sword it becomes my light source, not shedding much light in a sheath.

The world you game in doesn't have daylight?