10 or better to hit period

[Sadrik]

does the same apply for monster's attacks?

Yup.

 

[Nifft]

What is a d02 joke thread?

D02: Know No Limit - RPGnet RPG Game Index seems to be a good consolidation of references. You can search for "d02", too.

Well, they would have +1 to hit those opponents from last time (+1/2 level). More importantly they will have new powers to crush them with. They still have the new powers. The +1 to hit is a casualty of this idea. +1 to hit is really not that big a deal, anyway, is it?

That's part of it, but not all. In +X levels, you get better weapons (higher Enhancement bonus), more HP, higher Defenses, better powers, and a bonus to attack. It's true that 4e reduced that bonus to +1/2 X -- in 3e, it was +X for full BAB characters, and the next tier of spells for full spellcasters.

So in 4e, perhaps it's not +2 levels, perhaps it's +4 levels -- but the idea of coming back through an area and blowing through foes who previously gave you trouble is still a satisfying one. And you may want to account for that, since it's one of the nice things "level" handles now.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sadrik]

I was seriously considering a variant in which ability scores did not affect hit-chances or defenses. It was kind of like 2nd ed (when only the most exterme scores affected combat, and extreme scores were rare).
I never bothered with it because it would be way too much of a pain to implement and balance.

I remember the threads.

Your idea solves the balance issue (sorta) but destroys half the options in the game (armor, shields, swords suck, some feats). Everyone may as well go with a 2-handed weapon or 2 one handed weapons.
Characters that choose shield builds (some fighters) for their specific defensive powers get penalized most heavily.

Armor and shields are the pill of this idea for sure. Any creative workarounds?

Swords and other +3 Proficiency weapons can be fixed by increasing their damage die or giving them brutal or something else.

Feats that provide bonuses to defenses and attacks can just go away or they can stay depending on how you feel about them.

As far as powers that give bonuses to attacks or defense I want them to stay and I have explicitly stated that in the first post. For instance, shield spell could give a -4 to attack. So any fighter powers that apply to defense could also remain.

 

[Flipguarder]

I want to play a character who is extremely accurate with a bow.

TOO BAD!

 

[eriktheguy]

When I mentioned the fighter shield powers I meant that powers like tide of iron, or builds that use other shield abilities suffer because they lose their AC/Ref advantage while other builds with more weapon get to keep their increased damage.
Maybe give heavy armor and shields a little bit of damage reduction.

 

[Sadrik]

That's part of it, but not all. In +X levels, you get better weapons (higher Enhancement bonus), more HP, higher Defenses, better powers, and a bonus to attack. It's true that 4e reduced that bonus to +1/2 X -- in 3e, it was +X for full BAB characters, and the next tier of spells for full spellcasters.

So in 4e, perhaps it's not +2 levels, perhaps it's +4 levels -- but the idea of coming back through an area and blowing through foes who previously gave you trouble is still a satisfying one. And you may want to account for that, since it's one of the nice things "level" handles now.

Even at 4 levels different, I see the other factors you mention as being far more effectual than +2 to hit/ opponents -2 to hit. Better powers, better weapons, and more HP are in my opinion more effectual than we are +1/they are -1. But it is something to note for sure.

It does clear up the math issues heartily, you have to admit...

 

[Sadrik]

I want to play a character who is extremely accurate with a bow.

TOO BAD!

I believe you are looking for careful attack. Being someone with a high stat, everyone wants a high stat so I don't see that as being a valid argument.

 

[Nifft]

It does clear up the math issues heartily, you have to admit...

Sure, but it does so at a cost. I'm just bringing up one thing your fix will cost. Other people have brought up other things.

You're not going to argue me into agreeing that your proposal costs nothing, because you have to admit it does cost something.

Whether it's worth the price is a separate issue -- we should endeavor to be clear about the price before deciding if the value exceeds that price.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sadrik]

When I mentioned the fighter shield powers I meant that powers like tide of iron, or builds that use other shield abilities suffer because they lose their AC/Ref advantage while other builds with more weapon get to keep their increased damage.
Maybe give heavy armor and shields a little bit of damage reduction.

Good idea. or give temp HP per tier if you have proficiency (mini toughness feats) Leather +2, hide +3, chain +5, scale +7, plate +8. Depends on if you want to subtract DR or just account for as a bonus to HP. Any other ideas on how to give armor some oumph?

Shields are more difficult...

 

[Sadrik]

Sure, but it does so at a cost. I'm just bringing up one thing your fix will cost. Other people have brought up other things.

You're not going to argue me into agreeing that your proposal costs nothing, because you have to admit it does cost something.

Whether it's worth the price is a separate issue -- we should endeavor to be clear about the price before deciding if the value exceeds that price.

Cheers, -- N

Fair and I think I have pretty up front on the costs. I am not trying to sneak it in or something...