15 Minute NPCs

[JDJblatherings]

Why?

Why if you need tables does it make something wrong?

The solution IMO is to make more tables as new splatbooks come out.

I also think the issue has more to do with gamism vs simulationism, again. Gamists are going to take much, much longer to make an NPC. Why? They are metagaming. They are building something that's mechanically cool and a fun challenge.

A simulationist doesn't care about the metagame. He just wants to generate something organically using the ruleset. That's where better tables are useful, like the PHB 2.

yeah, tables are a good idea. I used them plenty and modified for race and multiclassign pretty quickly.

also it isn't all that hard to simply wing it, level +5 for class skills (assuming an ability bonus here). levels for cross class skills.

 

[Mercule]

Why?

Why if you need tables does it make something wrong?

It indicates a level of complexity that's hard to manage. The tables are fine for henchmen, guardsmen, etc. but they don't address key NPCs (like my command group) very well. Nor do they handle thematic concerns like the fighter who is part of a culture that favors psionics to arcane magic.

The solution IMO is to make more tables as new splatbooks come out.

They did. Every splatbook has tables of feats and tables of spells. Those help somewhat, but not nearly enough.

I also think the issue has more to do with gamism vs simulationism, again. Gamists are going to take much, much longer to make an NPC. Why? They are metagaming. They are building something that's mechanically cool and a fun challenge.

Bull. I'm a simulationist/narrativist. I don't care about challenge except as it makes sense in the world and serves the story. But that simulationist drives me to make NPCs who reflect their cultures, rather than "shopping off the shelf".

Even then, the complexities can unforeseen vagaries. If the BBEG drops like a stone because I forgot one little trick, that is a challenge to both verisimilitude and rather anticlimactic.

If you're implying that 3E is a heavily gamist system, I'd agree. That creates some serious issues for those of use who don't tend to think in gamist terms. We still have to spend the thought on the game mechanics to serve our needs, but that isn't the reason we play. Because we're essentially swimming against the current of our own psyches, prep time becomes both more time consuming and less fun.

 

[bgardner]

Here's what I would do, very quickly of course:

Milweather Shallowshadow
Male gnome illusionist 12
N Small humanoid (gnome)
Languages Common, Gnome, Elven, Sylvan
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
hp 67 (12 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +5
--------------------
Melee mwk dagger +5 (1d3-2 / 19-20)
Base Atk +6; Grp +4
Spells (CL 12th, ranged touch +1)
6th (2) - 2 Heightened Shadow Evocation
5th (3) - Heightened Phantasmal Killer, Heightened Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation
4th (3) - Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration
3rd (5) - Displacement, Haste, Fly, 2 Dispel Magic
2nd (5) - Invisibility, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Levitate, See Inivisibility
1st (5) - Charm Person, Color Spray, Silent Image, Disguise Self, Magic Missile
0 (4) - Detect Magic, read magic, disrupt undead, mage hand
Specialty Illusion; Banned School Necromancy
--------------------
Abilities Str 6, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 10
SQ summon familiar, speak with burrowing animals
Skills Concentration 15/+18, Spellcraft 15/+18, Decipher Script 15/+18, Knowledge (arcana) 15/+18, Knowledge (the planes) 15/+18
Feats Spell Focus (illusion), Scribe Scroll, Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, Empower Spell
Possessions masterwork dagger, bracers of armor +4, headband of intellect +2, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +1, 1450 gp, spellbook

My point in this critique is not to beat you up about your NPC but to point out that there is a lot of work needed to make an NPC suitable for publishing. Also, making 3.5 characters and NPCs is very hard to do because of all the small bonuses hidden everywhere.

Comments:

* "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day". You're missing the extra spell per level.
* It's not clear based on the stats whether these include the stat enhancing items. If they do, then the NPC's Int is only 15 (before enhancement) meaning he can't cast 6th level spells. ("to learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.")
* DC's aren't included with the spells. Any published adventure would include spell DCs, epecially on this NPC since he has Spell Focus (illusion), Greater Spell Focus (illusion), and an additional +1 DC since he's a gnome.
* The NPC doesn't possess a spell component spells. He can't cast any spell requiring material components.
* The NPC gets 5 feats for being 12th level, plus scribe scroll, plus two bonus metamagic feats for being a wizard (5th and 10th level). 5 + 1 + 2 = 8 feats, and you only have 7 listed. You're missing a feat.
* Your AC is too low for an NPC like this whose probably going to face a group of 8th - 10th level PCs. He has to be able to survive more than one round.
* Your AC calculations are off. The Touch AC is 13 (+1 Dex, +1 size, +1 deflection bonus from ring of protection)
* The base attack bonus is off. It is +6/+1 not just +6. The NPC can attack twice with the dagger, and it should be +6/+1 (1d3-2. NPC gets +6 base attack, +1 size modifier, +1 masterwork dagger, -2 strength modifier
* The ranged touch attack for spells is +7, not +1.
* Skills: relevent skills for which the NPC has bonuses but not ranks should be listed. Listen (+2 racial), Hide (+4 size).
* Skill Synergies: His ranks in Knowledge (Aracana) gives him a +2 to his spellcraft skill.
* Missing racial ability: Low light vision is not listed, plus the rest of his spell-like abilities: " gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation."
* His grapple check is +0. Base attack bonus (+6) plus Strength modifier (-2) plus special size modifier (-4).
* (oh my gosh is this next one is picky). The NPCs encumberance level is at Heavy Load. There are 50 coins per pound of weight, so he's carrying around 29 pounds of coins. Spellbook=3lbs, dagger=1lb. You don't list clothes (eewww!) but assuming he has some that's another 4-6 lbs. The load for a small creature is 3/4 the listed value on the chart so it's - Light Load=15 lb. or less, Medium Load=16-30 lb., Heavy Load=31-45 lb. The NPC is currently carrying a Heavy Load, meaning he has a max dex bonus of +1, a physical skill penalty of -6, and a movement of only 15 ft.

 

[Gundark]

There is a LOT of variety to be made from picking different monstrous races and adding class levels. And if you want two different types of fighters or duskblades or bards, the solution is variance in the existing lists in the PHB 2. Add tables for random equipment, skill and spell priorities, and create more feat lists. This is just as valuable as a complete overhaul of the system, and I would EXPECT the designers to have these available.

I just cannot imagine spending more than half an hour on ANY NPC, let alone NINETY MINUTES. What the hell is he doing in that amount of time?

And this is for a full on stat block, not "I think a +8 sounds good to hit". Am I the only one who baulks at the amount of time designers claim it takes them to build high level NPCs in 3.5?

A couple of things.

Your example was a pretty basic NPC, sure just copying from a book doesn't take that long. Trying going outside that scripted example.

Mind flayer Cleric for example. You want something different with stats, you have to work them up with a point system or roll em. Now you don't have to take the monster feats the basic creature comes with in the MM, you wanna select some different ones. So go to your various splat books and start looking....oh what book was that feat in?...and so on. Skills aren’t too bad, but you can reset those and choose different skills from scratch. Now check for prestige classes...do you have the pre-req? No? Now which feat do you need to swap out to be able to be able to take the Prc? Now on to magic items...okay +2 mace a little boring? How about a +1 flaming vicious longsword… okay how much does that cost to craft?...look in the DMG….check to see if it’s within the gold piece limit that the creature of that type should have. Equip other stuff. Now one to spells….pull out all the splat books start searching…find the spells that fit within your concept….now what book was that spell in? (spell compendium does help loads with this, but even it was outdated with the next book)

Now do this with the follow crap going on.

Wife: Honey can you do (insert task here) for me?
Kid 1: Daddddyyyyy!!!! Where is my ballet suit?
Kid 2 : DAAAADDDDDD play cars with me?
Kid 1: DAAAAAADDDD Kid 2 hit me!!!!
Wife: Have you done (insert task here) yet?
Kid 2: Daaaaaaddddd I'm hungry
Kid 1: Daadddddy I have to go to the bathroom.
Wife: Will you stop playing around and get the kids ready for (insert activity here)...and have you done (insert activity here) yet?

Wash, rinse, and repeat…

So now you have 1 NPC done. Now you need to finish the 20 others a few out traps and maps, plots and the like.

15 minutes or a 3.5 NPC? Maybe...if you just do only what you have to….but don’t go too far off of course.

Now you might argue that if I have to do all the above stuff then I’m being silly. That I don’t have to do steps A, B, or C.

Well my argument would be that the game should be flexible enough to accommodate both play styles ( the minimalist approach and the non-minimalist approach). If it can’t then it a flaw in the game deisgn

 

[takasi]

My point in this critique is not to beat you up about your NPC but to point out that there is a lot of work needed to make an NPC suitable for publishing. Also, making 3.5 characters and NPCs is very hard to do because of all the small bonuses hidden everywhere.

That's not a lot of work. You were able to easily edit it in a few minutes, and I would have had it near perfect if I wasn't on a call at the time.

It's perfectly playable, and very nearly publishable.

 

[Mercule]

That's not a lot of work. You were able to easily edit it in a few minutes, and I would have had it near perfect if I wasn't on a call at the time.

It's perfectly playable, and very nearly publishable.

Your standards for publications are far below mine.

The flaws in the stats probably make the character a -1 CR.

 

[Fifth Element]

I completely disagree.

IME, some players (including me) can feel cheated if the world, including NPCs, are generating using meta-game knowledge. If they are built organically using tables and charts they may not always be 'optimized' but they are just as much fun to play and run because they feel natural.

Tables + charts = natural?

You and I are very different people.

 

[Fifth Element]

Wife: Honey can you do (insert task here) for me?
Kid 1: Daddddyyyyy!!!! Where is my ballet suit?
Kid 2 : DAAAADDDDDD play cars with me?
Kid 1: DAAAAAADDDD Kid 2 hit me!!!!
Wife: Have you done (insert task here) yet?
Kid 2: Daaaaaaddddd I'm hungry
Kid 1: Daadddddy I have to go to the bathroom.
Wife: Will you stop playing around and get the kids ready for (insert activity here)...and have you done (insert activity here) yet?

Okay, so do you spend a lot of time spying on me, or was it just a lucky guess?

 

[takasi]

Tables + charts = natural?

You and I are very different people.

Developed through fate and generated organically. Tables and charts are developed independently of the DM, so NPCs are not metagamed based on the party composition. Some automated creation methods are more natural and less gamist than others.

This is, IMO, a good solution for those who complain that it takes too long to generate NPCs. You can still take your time and agonize over your build to metagame and ensure a 'climactic battle' or a 'good challenge', but the charts help those of us who just want to simulate a game world quickly and dynamically.

 

[kennew142]

So, it's fast, within limitations, then.

The major enemy IMC is psionic. They have elan. And undead. And ardents. Psi-warriors are as common as fighters or warblades. It takes about 60 minutes to build a significant NPC. A 10th level command team (fighter, ardent, telepath, evoker), including equipment, took most of my prep time for two weeks (I have four kids, so I don't get an hour at a shot).

I'm in the same boat - twice. My campaign also features a lot of psionic adversaries. The entire storyline has dealt with the possible return of Auppensor (FR).

I also have 3 kids who do not allow me to design in peace. In truth, I wouldn't want them to. But it does restrict my time available for design.