DnD uses "bard" with the roots in the fili, skald, and jongleur. That was expressed in the original version.
DnD also specifically called out Orpheus as an inspiration and has stated in the pasts the class broadly encompasses other cultures even though the name came from specific cultures, and rhapsode was listed among other examples.
Right, you're talking about D&D in general. We have agreed that the "D&D English" term "Bard" encompasses not only the Irish/Welsh/Celtic bard archetype, but also the skald, jongleur, troubadour, rhapsode, and Orpheus, and potential every other musical hero in any mythological tradition (African, East Asian, Amerindian, etc) or in fantasy fiction.
We agree there. I was just making the point that instead of "universalizing" the Celtic term "bard", Gygax could've universalized one of those other terms as the class name: Troubadour, Skald, etc, instead of "Bard." And it would've made no difference.
So, when translating the a "universal / generic" term into the specifically Ancient Greek language and culture, one would go with the most "universal / generic" term for a "music-playing hero" in Ancient Greece (not Ancient Celtdom). The word "Bard" is of course going to remain the "D&D English" name for the class, even in the Theros setting.
But the Greek word
vardos is basically a Modern Greek term for a Celtic "bard"; though it did exist in Late Ancient Greek, it likewise only referred to the Celtic barbarian musician-poets who lived north of the Greeks. But the world of Theros, as far as I know, doesn't have a Celtic barbarian analogue. All PCs are going to be "Greek" musician-heroes. So what would that word be in Ancient Greek? And what word is generic enough (but still native Greek, not a later borrowing) to encompass all of the 5E "bardic colleges" (and various instruments and modes of music/art) which are going to be coming into play as Bards in Theros?
Your
Aiodos ("singer") is quite fitting. My suggestion of
Mousikos ("musician") is also fitting. Aiodos was used in Homer. And Orpheus is referred to as a Mousikos. So they both are archetypally Greek terms for a music-playing hero. One would work just as well as the other. WotC would just need to pick one to serve as the iconic / generic Ancient Greek class name. Voila.
DnD isn't Celtic, Welsh, Scottish, Greek, or anything else. The names of the classes are attached to the Dnd settings as it's own basis.
Exactly. Like I said, D&D class names are "generic / iconic" terms which are no longer closely attached to their real-world source culture. We completely agree.
A person could run a home campaign and rename them based on the settings but a musician still wouldn't be a bard. At least not until the term musician was reestablished with additional connotations. In DnD terms, musician falls under the entertainer background instead of a class.
Here's where we run off the tracks. Because I never suggested that the D&D English name for the class be changed to "Musician." That would be silly and pointless. I simply suggested that Mousikos be considered as the Ancient Greek name for the Bard class, for use in the Theros setting (and other D&D Ancient Greek settings.)
And we agree that, of the 5E Backgrounds, the Entertainer most closely represents the ordinary musician.
In Theros (and other Hellenic Adventures):
Entertainer = Kallitéchnēs
The 10 Entertainer Routines:
actor = ithopoiós
dancer = choreutria
fire-eater = pyrophagos (among other names:
fire-eater - translation - English-Greek Dictionary - Glosbe )
jester = gelotopoiós
juggler = tachydaktylourgós
instrumentalist = organopaíktēs
poet = poiētḗs
singer = tragoudistḗs
storyteller = aphēgētḗs
tumbler = gymnastḗs
Bardic traditions require special training beyond learning music. Bards study magic (among other things). Musicians entertain audiences.
Bards are historians, magicians, healers, advisors, teachers, and more. That's not what musicians do. Musicians do evoke an emotional response like bards do with music or poetry but musicians are not chronicling history or teaching through parable. The bard's purpose goes beyond entertaining.
Here are you offering that the English and Celtic term "bard" has more lofty and multi-disciplinary connotations than the word "musician." I agree. Musician is a generic word in English.
Yet in regard to Ancient Greek (the topic at hand), if we look back into the origins of the two suggestions: Aiodos and Mousikos both also have lofty and multi-disciplinary connotations. Aiodos was tied to poetry, music, battle, and sacred history. "Mousikos" is one who inspired by the Muses. And the nine Muses covered nine fields of sacred arts:
Muses - Wikipedia
It doesn't get more lofty and multi-disciplinary than that. It's simply Ancient Greek loftiness, rather than Celtic or Modern English loftiness.
I'm pointing out musician does not equal bard.
Like I said, in the D&D Worlds, of course there are warriors who aren't Fighters, acolytes and priests who aren't Clerics, wise-folk who aren't Wizards, and musicians who aren't Bards.
Though in Celtic-inspired D&D lands, such as the Ffolk of the Moonshaes of FR, and the Kaels and Thratians of Mystara, there may even be 'bards' (i.e. non-magical 0-level poets and musicians) who aren't Bards.
And I never suggested "Musician" as better name for the Bard class in English. "Musician" is of course a bland, generic word in English. However, the names Troubadour and Minstrel would've served just as well as "Bard", if Gygax had happened to choose those. Minstrel is used as the word for "music-playing hero" in Tolkien, and a "Troubadour" was more than just a singer - they were representatives of the esoteric Cathar / Manichean spirituality of the South of France. Skald would've worked too, but that would've definitely given a Norse flavoring.
But I never suggested, in D&D English, that Musician should replace the name Bard.
It's like calling someone who goes hunting a police detective because they both shoot guns.
Thanks for the winks buddy.
But naw, that's a mixed metaphor Hunter vs. Police Detective = Musician vs. Bard (???) and not so relevant.
I just like to make sure people understand the difference between a bard and a musician.
We agree that, in D&D English, the Bard is a class that encompasses potentially all musical-hero characters from all cultures.
A bard is it's own real-world thing like a priest or a warrior, and like both it benefits form folklore and myth in a fantasy game.
We are both relieved that I never suggested changing the D&D class name from Bard to Musician! Whew!
In Ancient Greek D&D, a Mousikos or Aiodos is its own real-world thing, that benefits from Ancient Greek folklore and myth in an Ancient Greek fantasy game.
I also don't want to derail the thread. It would be better to make a different thread or PM if you want to discuss it further.
Thanks for your suggested Aiodos class name, and responsive sharing. We agree on some things!
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I still ask James Wyatt for an Appendix or Web Enhancement with official "D&D Ancient Greek" names for all the classes, races, and other key terms, for the World of Theros and other D&D Hellenic Adventures.
In fact, if WotC will give me a complimentary copy of the book, and list my name in the credits, I could be willing to write the "Hellenic Adventures" Appendix for them!
