D&D (2024) 1st level monk. Why?

[Chaosmancer]

It's like your complaining about wizards not getting enough cantrips...

Their primary feature is a resource that can be expended on a large variety of effects.

If you want a resources-less monk. Ask your DM to a long sword into a punch and be a fighter.

Just to be clear. I agree that low level monks, especially level 1, could use a buff. But go ahead and pit a high level fighter and a high level monk against eachother and see who wins

No, it would be like complaining that the special cantrips for wizards never scale past 5th level. No firebolts of 3d10 or 4d10, you get stuck at 2d10 because you use resources instead of at-will attacks. That would be like what I'm talking about.

Yes, monks get Ki. Yes, ki is a resource. But you are missing the point so completely, I'll just throw the math at you.

Paladin, dueling style, +4 mod, longsword flex,
5th thru 10th level: 2d10+12 = 23 damage
- Spend a 1st level Smite: +2d8 = 32 damage

Monk, +4 mod
5th thru 10th: 3d8+12 = 25.5
- Spend ki for Flurry = +1d8+4 = 34

Now, this shows that the monk is doing better damage than a featless, basic, defensive paladin. So I'm wrong right? They are even getting more damage from flurry than the paladin smiting with their lowest spell slot. Well, this is what happens at 11th level.

Paladin, dueling style, +4 mod, longsword flex,
11th level: 2d10+2d8+12 = 32 damage
- Spend a 1st level Smite: +2d8 = 41 damage

Monk, +4 mod
11th level: 3d10+12 = 28.5
- Spend ki for Flurry = +1d10+4 = 38

Notice how the Paladin got a massive spike in damage, and now the monk not using their resources is dealing less damage than the monk using their's, and now the monk spending is also doing less damage than the paladin spending thiers?

Now, let's take a fighter who is actually built for damage, just for fun.

Fighter: Great Weapon Style = +1 per attack (approx), +4 mod, Greatsword (graze), Great Weapon Master, Charger.
11th level: 6d6+15 + 1d8 + 4 = 44.5 damage. Better than what the monk does EVEN WITH SPENDING KI. For ZERO RESOURCES. And they deal damage on a miss, and they occassionally get an extra attack, and if I really wanted to be fancy, I could swap Graze for another property.


Monk's don't have choices. They don't get to pick between a defensive style, a dual wield style, a ranged style or a heavy weapon style. And what is considered built for good damage martials CRUSHES monks at level 11, even if they spend all the ki their little hearts desire.

So no, telling me they can spend ki to increase their damage doesn't work, because I'm ALREADY ASSUMING THEY DO and they STILL FALL BEHIND.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Without spending Di Points on flurry of blows, 11th level Monks can also make 3 attacks dealing 1d10+Dex damage (using their bonus action from Martial Arts). That's fine as a baseline, especially if you have a weapon mastery that adds a lil sumpin sumpin to your efforts for free.

As currently written, if you want that 1d10 damage die, you get no weapon masteries.

And yes, 3d10+modx3 seems fine... until you start looking at the other classes and what they are actually doing. Then you realize is isn't actually keeping up.

If they want to spend Di points, they can start with a Stunning Strike, which if successful they'll get advantage on their following 2 strikes on that turn. They can even choose to Flurry to get more out of that advantage.

To be fair, as a monk lover and a DM to monks, I appreciate that the stun no longer lasts through 2 rounds of monk attacks. That was too much. multiround Stunlock at advantage is a feelbad for DMs.

Yes, you can spend points and use resources to increase your damage. No, that doesn't help when that damage is still below what is expected.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But they aren't and if they were then the monk would be strictly better- and level 1 is fleeting. I do agree that the monk probably needs a second wind for multiple reasons.

You are right, they are not the same. The Fighter is superior at level 1. Flat out. No contest. Unless you somehow play your level 1 adventurer with zero equipment.

If this is about stowing one weapon to draw another in the middle of a round I agree that weapon juggling like this is inane.

Doesn't matter if it is inane. It is rules as written and part of the fighter's kit.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You are right, they are not the same. The Fighter is superior at level 1. Flat out. No contest. Unless you somehow play your level 1 adventurer with zero equipment.

Or with limited equipment because they are an apprentice hearing the call.

Doesn't matter if it is inane. It is rules as written and part of the fighter's kit.

This is a playtest and that's something explicitly not updated. Part of the point of a playtest is to make sure that the RAW matches the RAI. If it makes it through the problem will be bad rules writing and an exploit. If it is an exploit that will be patched out before release then it should not be used for benchmarks.

 

[Asisreo]

Well, this is what happens at 11th level.

Paladin, dueling style, +4 mod, longsword flex,
11th level: 2d10+2d8+12 = 32 damage
- Spend a 1st level Smite: +2d8 = 41 damage

Monk, +4 mod
11th level: 3d10+12 = 28.5
- Spend ki for Flurry = +1d10+4 = 38

Notice how the Paladin got a massive spike in damage, and now the monk not using their resources is dealing less damage than the monk using their's, and now the monk spending is also doing less damage than the paladin spending thiers?

Though, the Paladin only has 10 of their resources and the Monk has 11 in a single fight and 22 within a day with no short rests.

Each Ki point grants an additional 9.5 damage. Meanwhile, each casting of paladin's smite does either 9, 13.5, or 18 extra damage.

If we actually tally up how much additional damage each resource is providing the classes, you'll see that the paladin's smite adds (4x9+3x13.5+3×18)=130.5.

The monk adds (22×9.5)=209.

So while the paladin frontloads their resource damage, the monk will continue to add their resource damage up to the 22nd round.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Or with limited equipment because they are an apprentice hearing the call.

At level 1, "an apprentice hearing the call" is expected to have 225 gp of equipment in One DnD. With that much gold, it would be rather trivial to get two d6 weapons and enough armor for an AC of 16. And still have A LOT left over.

Now, yes, if the Dm wants to run "5 gold and a stick" where they give the players five gold pieces and a stick, then the monk is going to be more effective. But an argument of "if the DM redefines the parameters so the monk is ideal, then the monk is better" is a very poor argument.

This is a playtest and that's something explicitly not updated. Part of the point of a playtest is to make sure that the RAW matches the RAI. If it makes it through the problem will be bad rules writing and an exploit. If it is an exploit that will be patched out before release then it should not be used for benchmarks.

And if you ignore the rule when talking about benchmarks, then the game will be poorly playtested.

Mechanically, there is not a single thing wrong with the weapon swapping that would cause it to be taken out of the game. So, assuming it will be taken out, is a poor assumption.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Though, the Paladin only has 10 of their resources and the Monk has 11 in a single fight and 22 within a day with no short rests.

Each Ki point grants an additional 9.5 damage. Meanwhile, each casting of paladin's smite does either 9, 13.5, or 18 extra damage.

If we actually tally up how much additional damage each resource is providing the classes, you'll see that the paladin's smite adds (4x9+3x13.5+3×18)=130.5.

The monk adds (22×9.5)=209.

So while the paladin frontloads their resource damage, the monk will continue to add their resource damage up to the 22nd round.

With a whole lot of assumptions, yes, this is factually true. (Such as the assumption that all of the monk damage gets applied. Smites never miss. Flurry of blows does)

And the fighter outperforms both for 1,000 rounds, because I made a defensive paladin with no feats. And it costs them zero resources.

Monks need something to improve their damage at level 11. This has been proven time and time and time again, to the point I'm honestly shocked I somehow need to prove it yet again.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And if you ignore the rule when talking about benchmarks, then the game will be poorly playtested.

This depends on whether it is expected that it will end up in the final version or is an exploit that will be patched out.

If you ignore a final rule for benchmarking you're benchmarking off the wrong thing - and if you benchmark based off an exploit that will not be in the final rules the game will be poorly playtested.

Mechanically, there is not a single thing wrong with the weapon swapping that would cause it to be taken out of the game. So, assuming it will be taken out, is a poor assumption.

Thematicaly it is ridiculous, physically it is fiddly and messy and slows things down, and mechanically it evades balancing factors.

Or do you really think weapon juggling isn't an exploit? Part of the point of playtesting is to find and patch out exploits.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This depends on whether it is expected that it will end up in the final version or is an exploit that will be patched out.

Why would you patch out an exploit that no one talks about, no one tests, and no one complains or praises? You may as well say that it depends on whether or not they use Times New Roman font.

If you ignore a final rule for benchmarking you're benchmarking off the wrong thing - and if you benchmark based off an exploit that will not be in the final rules the game will be poorly playtested.

The entire point of a playtest is to assume the rules you are using are the final rules. If you find something broken in a playtest and just shrug thinking "well, this was obviously broken, but they won't include something like that in the game, so I'll ignore it" you AREN'T playtesting.

Thematicaly it is ridiculous, physically it is fiddly and messy and slows things down, and mechanically it evades balancing factors.

Or do you really think weapon juggling isn't an exploit? Part of the point of playtesting is to find and patch out exploits.

I agree thematically it is annoying, it is one of the reasons I put in my playtest doc that I would prefer weapon masteries become techniques you learn and apply instead, to encourage single weapons.

Physically... I don't physically equip weapons when playing DnD, so I can't comment on that. And since everything is written on my sheet, it isn't a problem at all to use a different attack.

And mechanically, from the things that have been said by Crawford? Mechanically it seems INTENTIONAL. So it isn't evading balance at all. It is the new balance. And since mechanically is the only way it matters for "exploits" then... no, I don't think it is an exploit. I think it is the designers intent.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why would you patch out an exploit that no one talks about, no one tests, and no one complains or praises?

I don't know - but we are talking about the weapon juggling exploit here which people do talk about and complain.

And it would be patched out for being silly and being the "advantage that makes the game less fun because it takes time while in practice removing choices".

The entire point of a playtest is to assume the rules you are using are the final rules.

Ok. So you know nothing about playtesting with lag. Gotcha

If you find something broken in a playtest and just shrug thinking "well, this was obviously broken, but they won't include something like that in the game, so I'll ignore it" you AREN'T playtesting.

No. What you do is you flag it then you put it to one side after flagging it and ignore it. Because otherwise you are playtesting the exploit not the intended game.

Early playtesting of course the designer may step in and say "don't do that".

And mechanically, from the things that have been said by Crawford? Mechanically it seems INTENTIONAL.

[Citation needed]