D&D 5E 2024 new multi-target spell up casting in 2014

When I went through the 2024 spell list for things to selectively adapt to my 2014 games, I generally grabbed the changes that allow you to hit additional targets by up casting. I didn't examine those as closely as I did other changes because it conceptually seemed like it shouldn't be a problem.

But I've seen it mentioned as a problem enough now that I need to re-examine that.

Which particular spells becomes over powered for their upcast level with additional targets, and how does it play out? I'm particularly interested in thoughts on why spells that look like they wouldn't be unbalanced up cast turn out to be, as well as if simply weakening the up casting (1 target per 2 levels rather than 1 per 1 for example) would be a good fix.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

In particular, here are the spells in the 5e.2024 PHB that I could find (maybe there are more?) that have added multiple targets when upcasting:

  • Freedom of Movement
  • Gaseous Form
  • Jump
  • Spider Climb
  • Tasha's Hideous Laughter

IMO, the cost of expending higher level spell slots balances out any concern.
Four of these spells just deal with movement of some sort and none of them as powerful as Fly, which already allows upcasting for multiple targets in the 2014 rules. Three of these spells are Concentration, for what that is worth. None of them strike me as overpowered with more targets but I'm not as adept at spotting rules exploits as some others in these parts. I mean, maybe THL becomes a better option than Hypnotic Pattern when upcast?

What problems have you seen mentioned @Sword of Spirit ?
 

When I went through the 2024 spell list for things to selectively adapt to my 2014 games, I generally grabbed the changes that allow you to hit additional targets by up casting. I didn't examine those as closely as I did other changes because it conceptually seemed like it shouldn't be a problem.

But I've seen it mentioned as a problem enough now that I need to re-examine that.

Which particular spells becomes over powered for their upcast level with additional targets, and how does it play out? I'm particularly interested in thoughts on why spells that look like they wouldn't be unbalanced up cast turn out to be, as well as if simply weakening the up casting (1 target per 2 levels rather than 1 per 1 for example) would be a good fix.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Command

For both of these the real problem is not just multiple targets (and command already had that), but rather that the spells now affect every creature type, almost everything is vulnerable to them on a failed save.

One of the main drawbacks of a caster is forcing choices for preparing spells. You can't prepare every spell. The problem with these spells is they are so effective and versatile and scale so well that it eliminates the need for other control spells as you level. You can have THL or Command be your "one control spell" for level 1-20 and never bother with any others and still be very powerful and effective at control when needed

THL in particular, cast at a higher level generally scales better than alternative concentration control spells of that same level - THL at level 2 is better than Hold Person, THL at level 3 is better than Hypnotic Pattern, THL at level 4 is better than Banishment, THL at level 5 is better than Hold Monster. Obviously there are situations that is not true, but in the vast majority of situations it is true.

In my recent 1-20 campaign, my PC (Warlock-Arcane Trickster-Paladin) was still using THL all the time at level 17+

I have not seen problems with any other spells in the 2024 rules.
 
Last edited:

Thanks!

Yeah, the ones I know I had heard about were command and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I only adopted the multi-target improvements, so that means command is unchanged and shouldn't be a problem. With THL, I'm guessing my proposed every second level upcasting should keep it under control.
 

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Command

For both of these the real problem is not just multiple targets (and command already had that), but rather that the spells now affect every creature type, almost everything is vulnerable to them on a failed save.

One of the main drawbacks of a caster is forcing choices for preparing spells. You can't prepare every spell. The problem with these spells is they are so effective and versatile and scale so well that it eliminates the need for other control spells as you level. You can have THL or Command be your "one control spell" for level 1-20 and never bother with any others and still be very powerful and effective at control when needed

THL in particular, cast at a higher level generally scales better than alternative concentration control spells of that same level - THL at level 2 is better than Hold Person, THL at level 3 is better than Hypnotic Pattern, THL at level 4 is better than Banishment, THL at level 5 is better than Hold Monster. Obviously there are situations that is not true, but in the vast majority of situations it is true.

In my recent 1-20 campaign, my PC (Warlock-Arcane Trickster-Paladin) was still using THL all the time at level 17+

I have not seen problems with any other spells in the 2024 rules.
Command always scaled though? From 2014, "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can affect one additional creature for each slot level above 1st. The creatures must be within 30 feet of each other when you target them."

The only change is the range, but that generally is not a big deal because 30 feet is pretty far and now it's just 60 feet total which is...30 foot radius, IE the same as "within 30 feet of each other" for most cases.

I mean, the proof this wasn't all that big a problem for you is you never even noticed Command always upscaled like this for the past decade! :)

As for the claim Tasha's is better than Hypnotic Pattern, I disagree. First, the range for Tasha's is 30 feet, and Hypnotic Pattern is 120. Second Hypnotic Pattern will hit a lot more creatures for a 3rd level spell slot than Tasha's ("THL"), which is when you'd choose Hypnotic Pattern ("HP"). I've seen 6 creatures hit by HP before (not that hard with a 30' cube cast up to 120 feet away from you) for a single 3rd level slot and you'd need a 6 level slot of THL for that.

Between Command and THL I've always found Command to have more utility. Command creatures to flee and they draw opportunity attacks as it runs away "by the fastest available means" and does not have the caveat of not endangering itself like many other spells do. Rogues love the Command: Flee spell.
 
Last edited:

Command always scaled though? From 2014, "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can affect one additional creature for each slot level above 1st. The creatures must be within 30 feet of each other when you target them."

I said it always upscaled above, however the spell itself is MUCH different now.

In 2014 you needed to speak the langauge of the target which made it very, very situational and you couldn't use it on Undead even if they did speak your language. You could use it on maybe 2 in 10 monsters you came across.

Now there is no language requirement, and no creature type restrictions. You can use it on a plant or a gelatinous cube or anything. It is way more effective in play because you can use it in any encounter.

As for the claim Tasha's is better than Hypnotic Pattern, I disagree. First, the range for Tasha's is 30 feet, and Hypnotic Pattern is 120. Second Hypnotic Pattern will hit a lot more creatures for a 3rd level spell slot than Tasha's ("THL"), which is when you'd choose Hypnotic Pattern ("HP"). I've seen 6 creatures hit by HP before (not that hard with a 30' cube cast up to 120 feet away from you) for a single 3rd level slot and you'd need a 6 level slot of THL for that.

I am speaking from my experience in 2024, which is now quite significant (one complete 1-20 campaign, one ongoing 1-14 campaign, one ongoing 1-6 campaign and several one-shots). Upcast THL in the 2024 rules is generally more effective than Hypnotic Pattern. Not always and in every situation but generally.

You will rarely hit more than 3 enemies with Hypnotic Pattern and because it is an AOE and there is Friendly fire. If you win initiative and get it off early on the first round sure, it can be better, but THL can usually hit 3 regardless of initiative and regardless of what round you cast it.

Enemies immune to Charm are immune to HP and others get advantage on the save because it is a charm. That is not an issue for THL because it is not a charm.

Hypnotic Pattern is also canceled by damage and can be canceled by another creature using an action, THL only forces another save on damage. This is partly countered by THL being save every round, but with combats generally being less than 4 rounds this is rarely a significant limfac.

There are situations where HP is better, long range with clustered enemies is one of those.

Between Command and THL I've always found Command to have more utility. Command creatures to flee and they draw opportunity attacks as it runs away "by the fastest available means" and does not have the caveat of not endangering itself like many other spells do. Rogues love the Command: Flee spell.

They each have their use. Command is a single round not concentration, so it doesn't directly compare to THL like HP and the other spells I mentioned. It compares more closely with Dissonant Whispers or Tasha's Mind Whip, both of which it is generally now better than.
 
Last edited:

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Command

For both of these the real problem is not just multiple targets (and command already had that), but rather that the spells now affect every creature type, almost everything is vulnerable to them on a failed save.
Are spells like this countered by other spells that are more limited in who it can target. I thought I seen where there are less humanoids and more fey and such that are not longer able to be targeted by some spells, maybe charm person if I recall.

Are these other spells now more junk or situational?
 

Possibly a bit off-topic, but this thread made me realise that Tasha's Hideous Laughter now affects enemies regardless of INT score. I hate that. There's no reason a creature of bestial intelligence should be vulnerable. It makes no sense (how do you make a stone golem laugh?) and removes a self-balancing aspect of the spell. The 2014 rule that creatures with intelligence of 4 or less are immune is so much better. Now I'm irrationally ticked off.
 

Possibly a bit off-topic, but this thread made me realise that Tasha's Hideous Laughter now affects enemies regardless of INT score. I hate that. There's no reason a creature of bestial intelligence should be vulnerable. It makes no sense (how do you make a stone golem laugh?) and removes a self-balancing aspect of the spell. The 2014 rule that creatures with intelligence of 4 or less are immune is so much better. Now I'm irrationally ticked off.
Yeah that really is a problem, and similar restrictive wording was removed from Command. Retaining those restrictions from 2014 as "unwritten common sense" seems like an easy homebrew change to better balance these spells in 5.5e
 

Are spells like this countered by other spells that are more limited in who it can target. I thought I seen where there are less humanoids and more fey and such that are not longer able to be targeted by some spells, maybe charm person if I recall.

Are these other spells now more junk or situational?

This is true, but these two spells affect just about everything. I don't think any creature is immune to command, and only those immune to incapacitated are immune to THL.
 

Remove ads

Top