D&D (2024) 2025's Ancient Green Dragon Stat Block From The New Monster Manual

The new ancient green dragon from the 2025 Monster Manual was previewed at Gen Con.

​

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. I think that is assumed in anyone's argument. And I will say I have seen DMs with years of experience only do exactly what is written on the stat block.

Sure. So the different types of attacks the dragon can use should be written in its statblock. That is literally what it is for.

 

[Zaukrie]

I am not necessarily talking about easier to run. I am talking about more interesting and thematic. For example I might do something like this:

Round 1: Poison Breath; spend all three rend reactions on a tail sweep (40-foot cone, 1 rend attack on each target in the cone, on hit the target is pushed 20 feet and knocked prone)

Round 2: claw (rend)/ claw (rend) / bite (rend + 1 reaction rend and target grappled); remain 2 reactions as appropriate.

Round 3: claw (rend)/ claw (rend) / bite (rend + 1 reaction rend); wing attack (cost 2 reactions) rend attack on each creature within 40 feet, hit half damage, and dazed. Then dragon can fly up to half its speed without OA.

But can a first year DM do that? Can veteran DMs do that? IDK.

No one has to to enjoy the game. It's how you like to play.

 

[dave2008]

Sure. So the different types of attacks the dragon can use should be written in its statblock. That is literally what it is for.

OK, you have jumped into the middle of a discussion and don't have the context and/or viewpoints clear.

We are discussing the green dragon's rend attack and its value as a replacement for discrete claw, bite, tail, and wing attacks.

Some like it because it is simple and easier to run and gives them the freedom to flavor the attack however they want.

Some don't like it because it doesn't have specific mechanics that represent the different aspects of different types of attacks.

I am personally wrestling with it because I agree, to some extent, with both sides. I am trying to find a happy medium, and not having success as of yet. So I am also trying to dig down and understand both sides a bit better.

 

[dave2008]

No one has to to enjoy the game. It's how you like to play.

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to suggest. Or maybe why your are saying this / what is the relevance of this statement.

 

[mamba]

I was just reading some posts about the 2024 ancient green dragon on redit and they were in general much more favorable than here. In particular there was a lot of love for rend and how it was much easier and flexible than the old claw/bite/tail.

easier, sure, I don’t think anyone was arguing against that. Not sure how 3x Rend is more flexible than 1x Bite and 2x Claws

 

[dave2008]

@Stalker0 I do want to follow up with you on the flavoring of Rend. You like that is flexible and can be reflavored* however you want. I agree with that idea. However, what if a want my attack to have different mechanics? A claw to push, a bite to grapple, a tail to stun, etc. Do those attacks then need a different action? Do those extra effects fall under reflavoring?

 

[dave2008]

easier, sure, I don’t think anyone was arguing against that. Not sure how 3x Rend is more flexible than 1x Bite and 2x Claws

I am gathering the issue is the name? A claw is specific while rend is generic. You can, if I understand the argument correctly, make a rend attack into a claw, bite, tail, or wing attack simply by how you describe it. Which I agree with.

However, IMO, I could do that with a claw or bite attack too. The difference is the claw and bite attack can have different mechanics attached to them, which the single rend can not. So my tail attack can be significantly different than a bite attack if they are separate, but they can not if they are just reflavored rends.

 

[dave2008]

Adult and older dragons should be high(ish) level solo boss monsters. They don't need to be super noob friendly. When you face one, you've presumably already played through several levels. And as they're often fought as solo, the GM needs to only worry about this one statblock, so it can be more complex.

I agree, but I am trying to understand the counter argument.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

OK, you have jumped into the middle of a discussion and don't have the context and/or viewpoints clear.

We are discussing the green dragon's rend attack and its value as a replacement for discrete claw, bite, tail, and wing attacks.

Some like it because it is simple and easier to run and gives them the freedom to flavor the attack however they want.

Some don't like it because it doesn't have specific mechanics that represent the different aspects of different types of attacks.

I am personally wrestling with it because I agree, to some extent, with both sides. I am trying to find a happy medium, and not having success as of yet. So I am also trying to dig down and understand both sides a bit better.

Yeah, I know. I'm in "separate attacks" camp. I think added complexity is perfectly fine for a high level solo boss.

 

[mamba]

I am gathering the issue is the name?

not really, the issue is more that it gives zero guidance, 1 bite / 2 claws does that. It also allows for a bite to be mechanically different from a claw attack or a tail swipe, as you said below

The difference is the claw and bite attack can have different mechanics attached to them, which the single rend can not. So my tail attack can be significantly different than a bite attack if they are separate, but they can not if they are just reflavored rends.

To me that added guidance and flavor is worth a slightly more complex stat block