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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

So, AGAIN, that's not what Subtle Spell does. I assure you the creature knows someone is trying to cast spells on it. Why does it stick around?

But that's OK. Say, for the sake of argument, you succeed, somehow, at getting a Planar Binding to stick on Sul Khatesh. Then what do you do?
Yes, It does. Subtle Spells are imperceptible without visual effects.

The Wizards on material plane is devasted, now hunt them on multiverse.

Now, lets allow multiclass. Because Single classed Wizards cant compete against The Bastion Power.
 

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Yes, It does.
Nope. All it does--all it does in the rules--is to eliminate the need for verbal or somatic components. There's nothing about that that means someone can't tell a spell is being cast upon them.
The Wizards on material plane is devasted, now hunt them on multiverse.
How?
Now, lets allow multiclass. Because Purê Wizards cant compete against The Bastion Power.
The Bastion hasn't done naughty word. Only time it went against a wizard the wizard won.
 

Nope. All it does--all it does in the rules--is to eliminate the need for verbal or somatic components. There's nothing about that that means someone can't tell a spell is being cast upon them.

How?

The Bastion hasn't done naughty word. Only time it went against a wizard the wizard won.
I strongly disagree. Xanathar's and Sage Advice says that Subtle Spell cant be counterspelled because It is imperceptible.
I Will repeat again. Imperceptible
Imperceptible.
Again.
Imperceptible 😂😂😂


Yes, He won a new home as Stone Statue Chicken.
 

I strongly disagree. Xanathar's and Sage Advice says that Subtle Spell cant be counterspelled because It is imperceptible.
It can't be counterspelled, because Counterspell says you need to be able to see the person casting the spell, and if the caster isn't moving or talking, you can't see them casting the spell (more accurately, you can't see that they are casting a spell). Same as you can't counterspell an effect from something with innate casting, if that description says anything about not needing verbal or somatic components--you can't see that they're casting, so you can't counterspell.

Any other reading is failing to grasp the difference between "can't see the caster, casting" and "can't notice the effect/s of the spell."
 

It can't be counterspelled, because Counterspell says you need to be able to see the person casting the spell, and if the caster isn't moving or talking, you can't see them casting the spell (more accurately, you can't see that they are casting a spell). Same as you can't counterspell an effect from something with innate casting, if that description says anything about not needing verbal or somatic components--you can't see that they're casting, so you can't counterspell.

Any other reading is failing to grasp the difference between "can't see the caster, casting" and "can't notice the effect/s of the spell."
If the subtle spell doesnt have an obvious visual effect as a fireball or Fireshield,
Its totally imperceptible.
Again.
Imperceptible.



That why I love Subtle Meteor Swarm, because It has an obvious effect, but they cant see who cast It. Frame The Wizards pretty easily.
 
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If the spell doesnt have a visual effect.
Its totally imperceptible.
Again.
Imperceptible.
Sage Advice talks about suggestion cast using Subtle Spell (so there are no magic words before the suggestion, because the suggestion itself is not the verbal component), and is pretty clear that characters (and presumably NPCs, and monsters) can make relevant checks to figure out what has happened to them.
 

"Traxigor is a 17th level Wizard polymorphed into an otter."

I strongly disagree

You can disagree all you like, but that is the history of that particular creature. It isn't a species, but rather a unique individual that wished for the physical form of an otter (or approximately that of an otter; I think he can still talk and use his forepaws as hands and whatnot).

Traxigor is a beast CR 12 with spellcasting. The Polymoprh turn you into a beast with CR equal or lower than your level.

"Plus, such a transformation wouldn't be very useful since Polymorph states that "and it can't speak, cast spells" so... no you can't."
I strongly disagree,

The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech.

Traxigor can use hands and speech to cast spells. So, casting is avaiable for this new form.

You see the end of that line: "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, AND it can't speak, cast spells, or take any action that requires hands or speech." The AND is adding another restriction to the Polymorph form. It means that you are BOTH limited by the nature of your new form AND that you can't speak or cast spells (or use your hands).

Here is that corresponding line from True Polymorph: "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." Notice how that part is missing from the Polymorph spell? Without that line, you are an otter with some extra (for an otter) hit points.

Do you know what that means? It means a Polymorphed-into-Traxigor character can't cast spells. A True Polymorphed-into-Traxigor character could. Is your Sorcerer casting True Polymorph? No? Too bad; you really otter've thought that one through.

Your character has failed in countless ways and Feeblemind doesn't even work, since Simulacrum's Greater Restoration dispell that :ROFLMAO:I don't need to repeat everything again. Haha
. But, Not even initiative you rolled, because you aren't involved in combat. HAhaha, a sad death.

You still don't know how D&D initiative works. If you declare a hostile action, initiative is rolled. That's it. It's not about what the target perceives, it's about your action declaration. If it helps you conceptualize it more clearly, think of things that remove surprise (the Alert feat, Foresight) as something like Spidey Sense. If a person isn't surprised (after your hostile action declaration), and if they win initiative then they can take an action, secure in the knowledge that some unseen entity was about to start some hostilities with them. Don't like that? Then stop pretending you are playing (or discussing the play of) 5e D&D.

As to the purported victories of your characters against anyone, they can't have won anything. None of the builds so far, to my knowledge, have been legal, so there was never anyone for the Wizards to fight. (Holy Boi: Two too many spells known; Sparky Boi: One too many spells known; Coffee Boi: One too few "clockwork" spells known at level 1, so one too many spells somewhere else).

As to the subtle spell on Planar Binding stuff, if it is possible to get the spell off subtly (presumably by Wish), then that still doesn't mean that the creature obeys your mental command without twisting it. They might not recognize your face, but they are likely to be hostile to whomever bound them, and so those orders are very likely to be . . . creatively interpreted.

Remember that "imperceptible" is not a term of art. It is a bit of flowery wording with no real weight in the game. The rules bit might be seen as "cannot be counterspelled" and other such things. Plus, spells with a material component aren't even imperceptible, as the Subtle Spell metamagic doesn't remove that. (At least, that's how we play it in my group. Things do what they say, not more and not less, without some rule-of-cool thrown in.)
 


It is not necessary to dominate this creature, I just set an example, it can be any powerful creature.

The problem being that you chose freely this creature and scrutiny proves that you chose badly. Ending the sorcerer's live after a badly worded command on top of that...

The Bastion spells are imperceptible and The Bastion is hidden against this creature.
Step 1) Break his LR. Subtle Polymorph multiple times, the Bastion can store a lot of spells slots. She isn't a Shapechanger creature. Shapechanger subtype is Werewolf, Doppolganger. But she is not. Simulacrum also does this.

Simulacrum doesn't allow for a saving throw, so no, she won't use LR to succeed a non-existent saving throw. And Shapechanger she is. Read her stat block. Spells in 5e use natural language. Shapechanger is any creature that can change shape, not limited to shapechanger in the stat block. Changelings PCs are immune to polymorph despite not having the shapechanger subtype in the PC race and their power being called "change appearance". You'll strongly disagree, but Keith Baker explicitely said so.


Step 2) Subtle Wish for Planar Binding. 10% chance because your remove her magic resistence (Clockwork, Restore balance).

That's still 5% chance. The DC is 17, she need to roll a 2 to succeed and a 1 to fail. Minor quibble though as I probably calculated it to 10% somewhere as well.
If you win, you won a Meotwo. If it fails, try again tomorrow.

Even in Calvinball, of he wins, he wins a Meotwo, if he fails, he just gave orders to an unbound Sul Khatesh revealing his existence and general closeness if not location. There is a big chance that (a) SK will use the next 14,400 rounds to pound on Coffee Boi for having the gall to give her an order, starting with arcane cataclysm to cover her surrounding in an AMF that doesn't prevent her own spellcasting (b) having a life, she'll probably not stand around there for 24h here and start destroying the universe elsewhere in the meantime.
 
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You can disagree all you like, but that is the history of that particular creature. It isn't a species, but rather a unique individual that wished for the physical form of an otter (or approximately that of an otter; I think he can still talk and use his forepaws as hands and whatnot).

It used a non-standard wish to attain its current state. By the rules established in the OP, which prevent Wish to be used in the non-standard way, he's still a humanoid because his Wish would have been forbidden as its not replicating an 8th level spell. He wished to permanently have the form of an otter and yet keep all his class abilities. Canonically, he planeshifts the characters to Avernus since their level is too low to cast the spell by themselves.


Do you know what that means? It means a Polymorphed-into-Traxigor character can't cast spells. A True Polymorphed-into-Traxigor character could. Is your Sorcerer casting True Polymorph? No? Too bad; you really otter've thought that one through.

I see what you've done here. Too bad one can't multilike a post.
 

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