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D&D 5E 20th level Wizard vs the World

Stalker0

Legend
Mercenaries are not your friend, not even reliable.
Grab Popcorn and watch the wizard being killed for his fortune.
If you think that a merc who is getting paid more than he could ever dream on, would just turn on a boss that can point at someone and kill them, can alter reality, and can detect his very thoughts, oh and will come back from the dead if you do kill him (clone, which lets be honest the merc will have no understanding of how the wizard does it, just that the wizard is basically unkillable). Do you really believe that?

I could possibly believe the goons would turn if the sorc had gotten the upper hand on the wizard, and had damaged him severly. In that circumstance....maybe (although would the goons really believe the sorc wouldn't just kill them next?). But the wizard + goons are always going to have the upper hand, and there would be absolutely no reason for them to turn on him while the wizard remains powerful.

Movies have created this troupe that mercs are completely fickle and will turn on anyone at the slightest whim. But that is not how it actually works, mercs like to get paid and they like to win....so they will absolutely fight for the guy who has infinite resources and is basically undefeatable..... oh yeah and provides them a protective bubble that makes them completely immune to the enemy's main weapons (globe).
 

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Stalker0

Legend
Ok lets take it down to brass tax. Lets say you have convinced me that minions won't work, and that this sorc is the most dangerous opponent the wizard has ever faced. He is sweating, and will pull out all the stops.

So then the wizard brings the pain.

1) Both the Wizard and the Simulacrum cast Globe of Invul 7th, one 5 ft behind the first.
2) They gate you in to a demiplane, aka no long range and no where to run.

So none of your spells can hurt them, you can't twin dispel (because the first globe will protect the second, so it has to come down first). So you have to cast 2 dispels before you can even do anything to the wizard. (and that's a 25% chance of working).

Meanwhile for those 2 rounds you are trying to bring down his protections, he gets 2 spells a round on you. No maybe you counterspell one (35%-50% ish chance depending on spell level, or maybe you upgrade it to auto counter, costing your very precious high level slots), but the other one is getting through.

That is 4 spells he casts at you, and you now only have a 25% chance of actually being able to now cast a spell that MIGHT actually hit the wizard. And that's before I even choose a sublcass. Give me like an abjurer and now I'm even more likely to crush you, but I don't think that is even necessary at this point.

The sorc is toast.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Ok lets take it down to brass tax. Lets say you have convinced me that minions won't work, and that this sorc is the most dangerous opponent the wizard has ever faced. He is sweating, and will pull out all the stops.

So then the wizard brings the pain.

1) Both the Wizard and the Simulacrum cast Globe of Invul 7th, one 5 ft behind the first.
2) They gate you in to a demiplane, aka no long range and no where to run.

So none of your spells can hurt them, you can't twin dispel (because the first globe will protect the second, so it has to come down first). So you have to cast 2 dispels before you can even do anything to the wizard. (and that's a 25% chance of working).

Meanwhile for those 2 rounds you are trying to bring down his protections, he gets 2 spells a round on you. No maybe you counterspell one (35%-50% ish chance depending on spell level, or maybe you upgrade it to auto counter, costing your very precious high level slots), but the other one is getting through.

That is 4 spells he casts at you, and you now only have a 25% chance of actually being able to now cast a spell that MIGHT actually hit the wizard. And that's before I even choose a sublcass. Give me like an abjurer and now I'm even more likely to crush you, but I don't think that is even necessary at this point.

The sorc is toast.
Gate requires you know the creature true name and The celestial is attacking you. Breaking your concentration and defeating your simulacrum and you.
Poor Wizard.
 


Hohige

Explorer
The wizard can just dispel the summon. Legend Lore can get the true name.
Dispel is only 120ft against 600ft flying creature, hitting you. It doesn't work.

Legend Lore
"If the thing you named isn’t of legendary importance, you gain no information. "
"Name or describe a person"
It fails once, It fails twice.
Nothing works. The Wizard was defeated.
 



Shadowedeyes

Explorer
The premise was that you were gated into a demiplane, as per Stalker0's post. Really, though, I think I'm done debating this with you. I plan to post something a bit later on the original topic, but the sorcerer vs wizard thing is going in circles at this point.
 

Hohige

Explorer
The premise was that you were gated into a demiplane, as per Stalker0's post. Really, though, I think I'm done debating this with you. I plan to post something a bit later on the original topic, but the sorcerer vs wizard thing is going in circles at this point.
No. it just failed. The Sorcerer level 11 defeats the Wizard level 20 in the material plane and the wizard was kicked to his own demiplane. Playing video game there.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
Gate requires you know the creature true name and The celestial is attacking you. Breaking your concentration and defeating your simulacrum and you.
Poor Wizard.
Gate doesn't require a "true name", just your actual one. Aka its not like the soul name from the 3.5 truenamer or anything like that, just the name your momma gave you.
 



Benjamin Olson

Adventurer
1) Anti-magic field: The simplest option would be to cast anti-magic field and move in on the sorc. The sorc and wizard become schleps, and the warriors beat the crap out of the sorc. Without magic and allies, the sorc has no chance.

The issue with this is the Wizard has to trust his warriors not to turn on them in its weakened state, and a world seeking wizard might be too paranoid for that.

I think it's worth clarifying that, unless the Wizard is completely impossible to like and goes out of his way to alienate the people closest to him he can have some loyal retainers as a manner of course. Both Magnificent Mansion and Mighty Fortress (both of which he will presumably be casting as a matter of course) come with a pile of invisible servants serving lavish 9-course banquets to up to 100 people. Now I guess if the Wizard is a total edgelord loner as well as completely unlikable he can eat those banquets alone. But if he knows the first thing about how a pseudo-medieval lord operates he will fill those banquet halls with retainers. It should not be hard to at least have a core entourage of a couple dozen loyal people who under his rule live cushy lives with free room, feasts, and numerous magic servants to wait upon them, and without him and his magic have nothing. This is not even touching on the loyalty he can get out of spreading around non-magical kingly largess once he has done some conquering, this is just the byproduct of magical housing and fortification.

So while I guess having his lackeys turn on him is he is hyper-overtly evil and/or goes out of his way to mistreat those around him, if he can just stay somewhat morally ambiguous and be marginally considerate to his immediate entourage then I think some loyal followers are something we can reasonably assume.
 

Iry

Hero
The issue with this is the Wizard has to trust his warriors not to turn on them in its weakened state, and a world seeking wizard might be too paranoid for that.
Check this out: Create Magen. The really important part is the line saying "Any magen you create with this spell obeys your commands without question." In this case, we're going for the Hypnos Magen. There's nothing wrong with any of the other Magen, but the Hypnos only costs the Wizard 1HP to create and casts Suggestion at-will. Their HP is not astounding, but the World Wizard can summon and bind creatures that can cast Wish to restore her missing HP.

So she can build up an army of soldiers that are marching along, slamming everyone they come across with suggestions. Even this 11th level Sorcerer is going to have to save against 40+ suggestions. And that's not including anything big like planar bound Sul Khatesh, who can cast Foresight, Gate, Power Word: Kill and Teleport 1/Day. Or just a big pack of Solars if we want to keep things a little more generic. The Solars might even follow their orders in good faith if the World Wizard can convince them they are going to improve the Earth.
 

Iry

Hero
Gate doesn't require a "true name", just your actual one. Aka its not like the soul name from the 3.5 truenamer or anything like that, just the name your momma gave you.
Yeah. And Gate can be opened to specific locations, which can include "The place I was just standing at when someone threatening tried to assassinate me."
Well step 1 is eliminating all of these high level characters that could be a threat. From there, leaving the demiplane and conquering the world becomes a lot easier.
Yes. I don't want the World Wizard to sit in her sanctum and turtle until she conquers the world with summons. I much prefer her scouting around, brokering deals, using magic to make friends and create resources for her allies. And sure, she will have some elite units coming along, but at the end of the day she heads home and does her planar binding to keep increasing the numbers of her magical army. Magen have no time limit, and Planar Binding can last a year and a day. If she actually makes allies with a faction like the Solars, she can summon them in without any time limit. But her elite units can be pretty much anything with good spellcasting or tactical abilities.
 

So, basically, this thread has become "how can a level 20 wizard defeat a level 11 sorceror, who is obviously the master of the world given his obvious advantages, kill him and impersonate him to rule in his place ?"

This was less exciting than a level 20 wizard trying to rule the modern world (though TBH the strategy would probably the same, start by becoming the ruler of a superpower to give you a headstart).
 

Al'Kelhar

Adventurer
Wouldn't any hyper-intelligent wizard have already organised the worldwide destruction of any and all sorcerers? Why is this even an issue? Theocrafting some abstract builds and plonking them in a pocket dimension looking oddly like a white-painted room to cast spells at each other is just mental masturbation. A wizard is the archetype chessmaster villain with millennia-long planning horizons. No mortal sorcerer is even going to know that there's a wizard orchestrating world events to bring about his or her ultimate destruction. Assuming that anything with innate arcane ability survives more than a few hours after being born anyway. Cause, you know, every intelligent creature in the world already knows that such things need to be slain instantly, at risk of The Universe Itself being Utterly Destroyed.

I mean, it's not like any of the all-powerful spellcasters that have been part of D&D canon for the last 40 years have been sorcerers. Every uber-lich, demigod, or god-like spellcaster that is or was once a playable PC race is either a cleric (cause, you know, they have actual god(s) on their side) or a wizard.

So, can we get back to how a Level 20 wizard might accomplish world domination, on the vain and unrealistic assumption we can even understand how such a person might think or behave?

Cheers, Al'kelhar
 

Shadowedeyes

Explorer
I'm thinking you pull a Merlin on a wide scale. Basically be the advisor to the king, except thanks to Spell Mastery and Disguise Self, you play the role for as many as you can, without them knowing. Obviously, there is quite a bit that could go wrong here, but it's likely to help you stay out of the limelight compared to the wizard amassing an army or some such.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
I think the wizard doesn't have to go much farther than whipping up a couple invisible stalkers (6th level spell) to kill the sorcerer. They not only always know where he is hiding, but they also fly 50' and are invisible so immune to most of the Shrodinger Sorcerers spells that require a target you can see, like Dominate monster.

However this is all a waste because a good cleric and divine intervention can zap any mortal from anywhere on the planet, without the target even being aware they exist.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Wouldn't any hyper-intelligent wizard have already organised the worldwide destruction of any and all sorcerers? Why is this even an issue? Theocrafting some abstract builds and plonking them in a pocket dimension looking oddly like a white-painted room to cast spells at each other is just mental masturbation. A wizard is the archetype chessmaster villain with millennia-long planning horizons. No mortal sorcerer is even going to know that there's a wizard orchestrating world events to bring about his or her ultimate destruction. Assuming that anything with innate arcane ability survives more than a few hours after being born anyway. Cause, you know, every intelligent creature in the world already knows that such things need to be slain instantly, at risk of The Universe Itself being Utterly Destroyed.

I mean, it's not like any of the all-powerful spellcasters that have been part of D&D canon for the last 40 years have been sorcerers. Every uber-lich, demigod, or god-like spellcaster that is or was once a playable PC race is either a cleric (cause, you know, they have actual god(s) on their side) or a wizard.

So, can we get back to how a Level 20 wizard might accomplish world domination, on the vain and unrealistic assumption we can even understand how such a person might think or behave?

Cheers, Al'kelhar
Wizards learn magic. Sorcerers are magic.
Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer are effectively a demigod creature.

Behold, The DEMIGOD.

1609822756428.png


Stats
Race: Scourge Aasimar (+2 CHA +1 CON)
Classes: Divine Soul Sorcerer 20
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 15 CON / 10 INT / 10 WIS / 14 CHA
ASIs: Actor (+1 CHA), Skill Expert (Deception +1CHA), Metamagic Adept, Inspire Leadership, Tough
Final Stats: 8 STR / 14 DEX / 16 CON / 10 INT / 10 WIS / 18 CHA
Final HP: 180 + 35 (Extended 8th Aid Spell ) + 24 (Inspire Leadership)
Disguise kit, Expertise Deception, Actor feat, Magical Guidance, Extended Seeming Spell. It can be everything.
Metamagics: Quicken, Twin, Extended, Subtle, Distant, Empower
Wished Contingency condition: When I can't cast spell (Greater Restouration)

Spell Known:

Spells
1 -
2 - Aid Spell, Warding Bong
3 - Counterspell, Dispel
4 - Dimention Door
5 - Greater Restouration, Insect Plague, Summon Celestial, Seeming Spell
6 - Freezing Sphere, Heal
7 - Finger of Death, Etherealness
8 - Power Word Stun, Antimagic Field
9 - Wish



Loyal and Reliable Minions:

Extended Seeeming spell on all your allies to have a unique heavenly appearance.
In practice, this works like an Improved Mirror Image, creating multiple copies of you.
You can cast spells with impunity with subtle spells and enemies will not be able to find out who the real caster is.
Naruto's Shadow Clone.
The Sorcerer and all of his allies can fly and we have 2 Celestials (Summon Celestial) that are summoned to attack at 600 for 144 damage each turn for 2 hours duration.

1) Twinned Simulacrum.

2) Wished Create Magen.
With, Inspire Leadership, Upcasted Aid and Tough feat.
You can create several of these constructs, because you have a lot of HP available. You can also buff them with Inspire Leadership spell.

Galven Magen is the best pick.
Flying creature
Static Discharge (Recharge 5–6).
The magen discharges a lightning bolt in a 60-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw (with disadvantage if the creature is wearing armor made of metal), taking 22 (4d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

3) Extended 8th level Summon Celestial x2 (Simulacrum and the Sorcerer)
Well, 8th avenger celestial is a flying creature dealing 68 damage per turn at 600ft. 2 Creatures is insane.

4) Twin Finger of Death

It is a reliable way to expand your arm. 2x faster than any other spellcaster.

5) Simulacrum's extended Warding Bond gives you resistence against all damage

6) You have super strong long range spells, combined with Aasimar Ability. You can deals incredible damage. Long range spell combined with flight spell is insane.
All doubled with Simulacrum

Empowered Distant Freezing Sphere can deal 125 damage
Combined with Summon Celestial, It can deals more than 260 damage at 600ft.

7) Power Word Stun, Antimagic Field, Wish
all situational spells.





If they were having difficulties against a level 11 Sorcerer, imagine it against the DEMIGOD.
 
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