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D&D 5E 20th level Wizard vs the World

Iry

Hero
Prepare for battle. We need know your prepared spells.
Okay. Initiative is rolled. You lose (Diviner). Contingency Otiluke's Resilient Sphere triggers. I counterspell your counterspell. I cast Plane Shift and go back home. The next round I cast Gate and open a doorway to you. Over 100,000 Hypnos Magen surge through, along with a small assortment of Liches, Solars, Pit Fiends, Planetars, and Eladrin.

World conquerors don't need to waste time on solo fights.
 

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Hohige

Explorer
Okay. Initiative is rolled. You lose (Diviner). Contingency Otiluke's Resilient Sphere triggers. I counterspell your counterspell. I cast Plane Shift and go back home. The next round I cast Gate and open a doorway to you. Over 100,000 Hypnos Magen surge through, along with a small assortment of Liches, Solars, Pit Fiends, Planetars, and Eladrin.

World conquerors don't need to waste time on solo fights.
Initiative?
It's bad. Extended Ethrealness.
Action to reappear.
Cloakwork Sorcerer (Yes a cloakwork) cast Quicken Wish for Dark Star Spell and his simulacrum casts Quicken Wall of Force.
Easy.
Also, Gate doesn't work, because you don't know his true name.
True Seeming Spell also doesn't work, because He's with Extended Nondetection spell.
 


Iry

Hero
Initiative?
It's bad. Extended Ethrealness.
Action to reappear.
Cloakwork Sorcerer (Yes a cloakwork) cast Quicken Wish for Dark Star Spell and his simulacrum casts Quicken Wall of Force.
Easy.
The World Wizard is already gone. Nothing to target.
Also, you don't have Etherealness or Wish. The highest level in the world beside the World Wizard is 11-12th.
Also, Gate doesn't work, because you don't know his true name.
True Seeming Spell also doesn't work, because He's with Extended Nondetection spell.
Gate can open to a specific location. You don't need to use a true name if you are going to a location.
I'm not casting True Seeing.
 

Hohige

Explorer
The World Wizard is already gone. Nothing to target.
Also, you don't have Etherealness or Wish. The highest level in the world beside the World Wizard is 11-12th.

Gate can open to a specific location. You don't need to use a true name if you are going to a location.
I'm not casting True Seeing.
Ah, against the Sorcerer level 11?
Open a gate? Please, It will be fun. Get popcorn to watch them defeat you.
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
But the real question is, how would Batman defeat the 20th level wizard?
download (10).jpg
 


Stalker0

Legend
Ah, against the Sorcerer level 11?
Open a gate? Please, It will be fun. Get popcorn to watch them defeat you.
This is the one I am interested in. Here is how I see it.

If we have the 20th level wizard use the gate trick against an 11th level sorc, the Wizard is going to have at minimum a 7th level globe of invulnerability on as a buff, and probably several strong warriors ready to pounce (which the globe will protect unless the warriors move. There will probably be other things (mind blank is one strong possibility). But lets go with the basics.

The wizard has a few options:

1) Anti-magic field: The simplest option would be to cast anti-magic field and move in on the sorc. The sorc and wizard become schleps, and the warriors beat the crap out of the sorc. Without magic and allies, the sorc has no chance.

The issue with this is the Wizard has to trust his warriors not to turn on them in its weakened state, and a world seeking wizard might be too paranoid for that.

2) Simulacrum double cast. One of the sorcs greatest weapons in this fight is counterspell. While his counterspells are not as strong as the wizard, many people (myself included) rule that subtle spell negates counterspell, which is a major advantage to the sorc. One way the wizard can beat that is with simualcrum (just 1, again no cheese). Both wizards cast, and at best the sorc counters one of the spells, and is fried by the other.

Since wish makes it free, it would be absurd to assume a wizard without a simulacrum

3) Power Word Kill: I've noted before that its extremely unlikely that an 11th level sorc will have more than 100 hitpoints. So power word kill is one way to just end the fight right off (assuming the simulacrum has it). The sorcs main counter is counterspell, which assuming a +5 cha (a reasonable assumption for such an 11th level character) would have a 35% chance of negating the spell. Poor odds for the sorc, but not exactly the auto kill we were hoping for. Now if we go with the simulacrum double cast....than it comes down to the DMs interpretation of counterspell (aka do they use the Xanathar's ruling which means they would basically have to guess on which spell to counterspell). And even if they know its still a rock in a hard place. They might dispel the power word kill but the main wizard could still unload an extremely nasty other spell.

4) Planar Bindings: A wizard can use wish to summon an 8th level planar binding, which has no components and lasts 180 days. In theory the wizard could have have dozens of these creatures in his lair ready to destroy whoever comes through the gate, if normal men are just not sexy enough for you.

5) Feeblemind: A wizard can cast feeblemind at a nice safe distance out of counterspell range. Its an int save, so a very low chance of success for the sorc. The only way to fix it are spells the sorc does not have access to. This is a lesser power word kill, it doesn't kill the sorc, but it neuters them to irrelevance, for the wizard to then kill at its leisure.

6) Spell Mastery attrition fight: So another option is for the wizard to just spam its spell mastered spell. Sure the sorc has a lot of spell slots, but they aren't infinite. The sorc can counterspell but only for so long. As long as the globe is up, eventually the sorc will fail.


So those are just a few ways the wizard could take out the sorc. Is there anything the sorc can do to counter?

1) Dispel the Globe. Again if we assume subtle spell blocks counterspell, the sorc could attempt to dispel the globe. The standard 3rd level which is a 50/50 to dispel, not amazing odds but there's a chance.

Once the globe is down than it comes down to straight spellcasting. Now in a straight up duel 1 on 1, I think the sorc has a chance. Better counterspells, heighten and quicken spell. The wizard has stronger spells and better save dcs, and of course wish can deal with a LOT of things. The sorc is definitely behind, but if the dice gods are kind than I think its a possibility.

The math changes completely if we assume warriors with the wizard. If the wizard moves in on the sorc with this warrior army, the sorc can't effect them with spells (globe), and will start taking a lot of damage (which also has a high chance of knocking down concentration, which likely would free the wizard from the majority of nasty effects). So assuming the sorc gets off that dispel, he is still under a ton of pressure. While there is a chance his spells could get through and stop the wizard (not kill him, but disable)....but doing that to the wizard and surviving the goon squad is too much to ask for.

2) Dimension Door. Especially if the sorc wins initiative, he could attempt a dimension door. Now that is quite risky as he is now in an unknown lair, but its an option. The main issue is that a locate creature can pick up even a sorc that uses an enlarged d door. Further, the sorc is in another plane, with no means of getting home. And lastly, the sorc has no means of blocking divinations and scrying. The wizard can find him, and then kill him.

3) Summon a creature. The sorc could summon a creature of their own, but against a wizard, his simulacrum, and a group of warriors, one summon is not going to do much. It could be dispelled or simply killed, and if that costs the sorc his concentration than he is even bigger trouble.



So ultimately if the wizard uses the gate trick, and has a modicum of sense and preparation, I can't fathom how a sorc manages to beat them.
 
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Hohige

Explorer
This is the one I am interested in. Here is how I see it.

If we have the 20th level wizard use the gate trick against an 11th level sorc, the Wizard is going to have at minimum a 7th level globe of invulnerability on as a buff, and probably several strong warriors ready to pounce (which the globe will protect unless the warriors move. There will probably be other things (mind blank is one strong possibility). But lets go with the basics.

The wizard has a few options:

1) Anti-magic field: The simplest option would be to cast anti-magic field and move in on the sorc. The sorc and wizard become schleps, and the warriors beat the crap out of the sorc. Without magic and allies, the sorc has no chance.

The issue with this is the Wizard has to trust his warriors not to turn on them in its weakened state, and a world seeking wizard might be too paranoid for that.

2) Simulacrum double cast. One of the sorcs greatest weapons in this fight is counterspell. While his counterspells are not as strong as the wizard, many people (myself included) rule that subtle spell negates counterspell, which is a major advantage to the sorc. One way the wizard can beat that is with simualcrum (just 1, again no cheese). Both wizards cast, and at best the sorc counters one of the spells, and is fried by the other.

Since wish makes it free, it would be absurd to assume a wizard without a simulacrum

3) Power Word Kill: I've noted before that its extremely unlikely that an 11th level sorc will have more than 100 hitpoints. So power word kill is one way to just end the fight right off. The sorcs main counter is counterspell, which assuming a +5 cha (a reasonable assumption for such an 11th level character) would have a 35% chance of negating the spell. Poor odds for the sorc, but not exactly the auto kill we were hoping for. Now if we go with the simulacrum double cast....than its game over for the sorc, no save, no counter....just dead.

4) Planar Bindings: A wizard can use wish to summon an 8th level planar binding, which has no components and lasts 180 days. In theory the wizard could have have dozens of these creatures in his lair ready to destroy whoever comes through the gate, if normal men are just not sexy enough for you.

5) Feeblemind: A wizard can cast feeblemind at a nice safe distance out of counterspell range. Its an int save, so a very low chance of success for the sorc. The only way to fix it are spells the sorc does not have access to. This is a lesser power word kill, it doesn't kill the sorc, but it neuters them to irrelevance, for the wizard to then kill at its leisure.

6) Spell Mastery attrition fight: So another option is for the wizard to just spam its spell mastered spell. Sure the sorc has a lot of spell slots, but they aren't infinite. The sorc can counterspell but only for so long. As long as the globe is up, eventually the sorc will fail.


So those are just a few ways the wizard could take out the sorc. Is there anything the sorc can do to counter?

1) Dispel the Globe. Again if we assume subtle spell blocks counterspell, the sorc could attempt to dispel the globe. The standard 3rd level which is a 50/50 to dispel, not amazing odds but there's a chance.

Once the globe is down than it comes down to straight spellcasting. Now in a straight up duel 1 on 1, I think the sorc has a chance. Better counterspells, raw power. The wizard has stronger spells and better save dcs, and of course wish can deal with a LOT of things. The sorc is definitely behind, but if the dice gods are kind than I think its a possibility.

The math changes completely if we assume warriors with the wizard. If the wizard moves in on the sorc with this warrior army, the sorc can't effect them with spells (globe), and will start taking a lot of damage (which also has a high chance of knocking down concentration, which likely would free the wizard from the majority of nasty effects). So assuming the sorc gets off that dispel, he is still under a ton of pressure. While there is a chance his spells could get through and stop the wizard (not kill him, but disable)....but doing that to the wizard and surviving the goon squad is too much to ask for.

2) Dimension Door. Especially if the sorc wins initiative, he could attempt a dimension door. Now that is quite risky as he is now in an unknown lair, but its an option. The main issue is that a locate creature can pick up even a sorc that uses an enlarged d door. Further, the sorc is in another plane, with no means of getting home. And lastly, the sorc has no means of blocking divinations and scrying. The wizard can find him, and then kill him.

3) Summon a creature. The sorc could summon a creature of their own, but against a wizard, his simulacrum, and a group of warriors, one summon is not going to do much. It could be dispelled or simply killed, and if that costs the sorc his concentration than he is even bigger trouble.



So ultimately if the wizard uses the gate trick, and has a modicum of sense and preparation, I can't fathom how a sorc manages to beat them.

The funniest thing about it is. I will rule the world!! "Go ahead, friends, it's safer".

1609784689815.png


1) No, you don't have allies, just mercenaries.
In fact, the sorcerer doesn't even need to kill the Wizard, the mercenaries themselves have already done that.

What the guy is going to do with an Antimagic Field that has a 10ft range and completely nullifies him.
ahaha, just walk away and wait for him to kill himself.

2) The Celestial is hitting you at 600ft, flying, good lucky taking distant fireballs + Aasimar skill, and taking.
The Sorcerer has clear advantage on long distance fighting.
You are dead faster than you can image.
Rest assured, you will not be in range. The reach is in the advantage of the sorcerer and Celestial.

Warriors? The Wizard can't do it.

3) Power Word Kill.. Unfortunelly, It's dead with Distant Fireball, Distant Freezing Sphere and Celestial Hitting. It has short range.

4) Planar Binding... Wow.
Planar Binding
"The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is Hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."

You are clearly enslaving the creatures, and again, they will either kill you or betray you. I see that the Sorcerer will not even need to fight, his own allies do not kill him. Because none of them are reliable. Grab Popcorn.

5) Feeblemind has only 150ft, against attacks at 600ft. Good luck.

6) Globe of Invulnerability? In Immobile globe, Its amazing for the Celestial hitting you.

Dude, I'm seeing a Wizard that can't get close to Sorcerer level 11, while Sorcerer just attacks him freely.
No, it says, you can't win this battle in midair against Distant Casting Sorcerer and his Celestial.
 
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Hohige

Explorer
Why would the wizard not be able to get allies? And even if the wizard hires mercenaries, why would they betray the guy who is paying them?
Mercenaries are not your friend, not even reliable.
Grab Popcorn and watch the wizard being killed for his fortune.

The funniest thing about it is. I will rule the world!! "Go ahead against this one guy, friends, it's safer".
LOL.
 

Shadowedeyes

Explorer
Completely ignored my first question on why a wizard is unable to get non-mercenary servants, when kings and lords are able to do so.

Secondly, while it is possible a mercenary group may turn on the wizard for their fortune, their is a huge risk in doing so. First, the wizard manages to just kill them, either right then and there or later because they had a stashed clone somewhere. And if the word gets out that the group turns on it's employers, you might have trouble finding future work. If the fortune is big enough maybe that isn't a concern, but the first part is regardless.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Completely ignored my first question on why a wizard is unable to get non-mercenary servants, when kings and lords are able to do so.

Secondly, while it is possible a mercenary group may turn on the wizard for their fortune, their is a huge risk in doing so. First, the wizard manages to just kill them, either right then and there or later because they had a stashed clone somewhere. And if the word gets out that the group turns on it's employers, you might have trouble finding future work. If the fortune is big enough maybe that isn't a concern, but the first part is regardless.
The sorcerer will not then fight, he will only wait for the Wizard to kill himself. Grab Popcorn and bet how many weeks or days he will stay alive.
 

Stalker0

Legend
4) Planar Binding... Wow.
Planar Binding
"The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is Hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."

You are clearly enslaving the creatures, and again, they will either kill you or betray you. I see that the Sorcerer will not even need to fight, his own allies do not kill him. Because none of them are reliable. Grab Popcorn.
Based on your interpretation, the spell would be completely worthless, which is clearly not the intent of the spell. Elementals for example, if you feed them and such no reason they should be hostile to you. but even if we go with the hostile interpretation, this is a 20 int wizard (smarter than probably any human in history) vs a dumb elemental. The wizard will use language that is very hard to twist.

Also remember that gate has a 60 ft range. That means that any fight using the gate trick will start at 60 ft or closer. So no long range shenanigans'. Also considering this is the wizards lair, if he thinks long range would be an issue, he will set up the place for the gate site to be as favorable to himself as possible. Or if he wants to be lazy he could just cast a demiplane and gate you in there. No where to run in there.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Based on your interpretation, the spell would be completely worthless, which is clearly not the intent of the spell. Elementals for example, if you feed them and such no reason they should be hostile to you.
Not. You are just forcing them on Gate Spell, casting a spell for 1 hour, imprisoning them and to make them his minion.
No, they aren't hostile. I'm sure about that :ROFLMAO:


Fortunately, in 5e, there is no reliable minionancy. Trust your strength, or die.
 
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tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
@Hohige You've been doing a great job of spotlighting your schrodinger's sorcerer to show how any niche a wizard wants to target is handled better by a sorcerer who generally has the same spells, at least in some cases more spells known than prepared, & powerful archetype abilities that meaningfully enhance their schrodinger's niche to confirm a lot of the lackluster "something is off" feelings with the wizard & wizard archetypes at the table. With any luck wotc will hear you & not pull punches on wizard rchetypes or make changes so the strengths of a spellbook more clearly outshine the liabilities going forward.
 





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