D&D 5E 20th level Wizard vs the World

[Benjamin Olson]

Destroying the wizard is really easy. Extended Summon Celestial (The Avenger) for 600ft range damaging. It's a flying creature, so It's immune to Meteor Swarm. It can also destroy your dungeon, destroying everything in its path, traps, objects, barriers. Good luck. In 2 hours, the creature can deal 54,000 damage to its structures and you.
Divine Soul Sorcerer level 11 destroy the wizard.

This is your ultimate Sorcerer trump card? A big cleric minion with 50 hit points whom the Sorcerer gets for an extra hour? Yeah Meteor Swarm won't solve that particular problem, but since the Wizard isn't a Sorcerer he doesn't have to solve every problem with the same limited toolbox.

This particular Wizard conquered the world, I'm pretty sure he can muster some guys on hand who can shoot a damned longbow. Or he can cast Fly on whatever minions he does have. If he is alone then he has no investment in holding his ground and should just teleport back to one of his real fortresses. Or he can summon something new to go deal with the big cleric minion, including Wish-ing in a bigger version of the exact same Celestial if he was strapped for ideas. Or he could take the most D&D player character solution of all, throw on all his best self buffs, cast Fly on himself, and go smite a Celestial personally.

Then he uses his arcane knowledge to determine what the material component for that thing was, casts locate object on the nearest 500g golden reliquary, finds the Sorcerer, and Feebleminds him so that the Sorcerer can literally drool while the Wizard rules.

 

[Hohige]

This is your ultimate Sorcerer trump card? A big cleric minion with 50 hit points whom the Sorcerer gets for an extra hour? Yeah Meteor Swarm won't solve that particular problem, but since the Wizard isn't a Sorcerer he doesn't have to solve every problem with the same limited toolbox.

This particular Wizard conquered the world, I'm pretty sure he can muster some guys on hand who can shoot a damned longbow. Or he can cast Fly on whatever minions he does have. If he is alone then he has no investment in holding his ground and should just teleport back to one of his real fortresses. Or he can summon something new to go deal with the big cleric minion, including Wish-ing in a bigger version of the exact same Celestial if he was strapped for ideas. Or he could take the most D&D player character solution of all, throw on all his best self buffs, cast Fly on himself, and go smite a Celestial personally.

Then he uses his arcane knowledge to determine what the material component for that thing was, casts locate object on the nearest 500g golden reliquary, finds the Sorcerer, and Feebleminds him so that the Sorcerer can literally drool while the Wizard rules.

He didn't conquer the world, he's trying, but he found a level 11 divine soul sorcerer.

First thing, the Wizard has no Minions. He can not. In fact, if he puts creatures there, they will kill him.
Ok. you can wish for a cleric minion. lol, It has 1 hour duration and your level 9 spell is gone. The Sorcerer Celestial has 2hours duration, more than 7 per day.The sorcerer just has to wait for the Wished-Celestial duration ends.

A single Wished-Celestial 1hour duration vs 7 Celestial 2 hours duration each. Good Lucky.

If the Wizard is flying, the celestial hits him freely. Distant Fireball, Distant Freezing Sphere. It's amazing
The Wizard is flying? The Sorcerer uses Aasimar Skill and Blasting the Wizard with Distant Empowered Insect Plague + Aasimar extra damage. It's 37,5 damage each casting
Poor wizard.
Level 20
A Wizard within an enhanced fortness being defeated by a level 11 Sorcerer without magical itens or resources.
Also, Locate Object doesnt work
"The spell can locate a specific object known to you, as long as you have seen it up close—within 30 feet—at least once."

 

[Benjamin Olson]

He didn't conquer the world, he's trying, but he found a level 11 divine soul sorcerer.

First thing, the Wizard has no Minions. He can not. In fact, if he puts creatures there, they will kill him.
Ok. you can wish for a cleric minion. lol, It has 1 hour duration and your level 9 spell is gone. The Sorcerer Celestial has 2hours duration, more than 7 per day.The sorcerer just has to wait for the Wished-Celestial to end.

A single Wished-Celestial 1hour duration vs 7 Celestial 2 hours duration each. Good Lucky.

If the Wizard is flying, the celestial hits him freely. Distant Fireball, Distant Freezing Sphere. It's amazing
The Wizard is flying? The Sorcerer uses Aasimar Skill and Blasting the Wizard with Distant Empowered Insect Plague + Aasimar extra damage. It's 37,5 damage each casting
Poor wizard.
Level 20
A Wizard within an enhanced fortness being defeated by a level 11 Sorcerer without magical itens or resources.

A level 20 character plans to conquer the world and he doesn't even have a few hirelings? What? I assumed we were discussing whether an intelligent wizard with planning and forethought could do this, not one who has evidently gone insane.

And the Sorcerer is now going to reveal his location with Fireballs during this assault? He's going to let the Wizard see who he is? Because now Mr. Wizard teleports away and casts Dream on the Sorcerer every night.

 

[Hohige]

A level 20 character plans to conquer the world and he doesn't even have a few hirelings? What? I assumed we were discussing whether an intelligent wizard with planning and forethought could do this, not one who has evidently gone insane.

And the Sorcerer is now going to reveal his location with Fireballs during this assault? He's going to let the Wizard see who he is? Because now Mr. Wizard teleports away and casts Dream on the Sorcerer every night.

Technically, Hire is not reliable. Do you want to dominate the world for it? This Wizard doesn't survive more than 2 weeks without a reliable minions.

I am already an excellent Wizard slayer. Ritual caster feat to access Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell. "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." (PHB p255) It can be cast as a ritual by a 5th level caster (it's a 3rd level Wizard spell) and it lasts for 8 hours; long enough for a Long Rest. The Mighty Wizard being forced to retreat so as not to die?
Now, the sorcerer continues to destroy his fortress freely as the Wizard has fled

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Technically, Hire is not reliable. Do you want to dominate the world for it? This Wizard doesn't survive more than 2 weeks without a reliable minions.

Perhaps you are unaware, but people have actually ruled countries, built empires, conquered lands, etc. without the help of summoned magical creatures.

Ritual caster feat to access Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell.

And now you have a Sorcerer who had to take a feat to do a Wizard thing so that he could avoid one spell from a guy who knows at least 43 other spells, and possibly many more.

The Mighty Wizard being forced to retreat so as not to die?

He didn't get mighty letting himself be drawn into fights unprepared like some stupid NPC villain. He'll happily bamf around the universe until he contrives a way to meet his enemy on his own terms.

 

[Hohige]

Perhaps you are unaware, but people have actually ruled countries, built empires, conquered lands, etc. without the help of summoned magical creatures.



And now you have a Sorcerer who had to take a feat to do a Wizard thing so that he could avoid one spell from a guy who knows at least 43 other spells, and possibly many more.



He didn't get mighty letting himself be drawn into fights unprepared like some stupid NPC villain. He'll happily bamf around the universe until he contrives a way to meet his enemy on his own terms.

You cannot guarantee that these creatures will not kill or betray you. More likely to be killed. This wizard does not last 2 weeks.

And now you have a Sorcerer who had to take a feat to do a Wizard thing so that he could avoid one spell from a guy who knows at least 43 other spells, and possibly many more.

We are in a level 11 vs level 20 fight and are you complaining about the feat? At equal levels the Wizard would be completely destroyed, with no chance of surviving.

He didn't get mighty letting himself be drawn into fights unprepared like some stupid NPC villain. He'll happily bamf around the universe until he contrives a way to meet his enemy on his own terms.

You are the only level 20 in the game with infinite resources and you are being countered by a level 11 Sorcerer without any resources.

 

[nevin]

Perhaps you are unaware, but people have actually ruled countries, built empires, conquered lands, etc. without the help of summoned magical creatures.



And now you have a Sorcerer who had to take a feat to do a Wizard thing so that he could avoid one spell from a guy who knows at least 43 other spells, and possibly many more.



He didn't get mighty letting himself be drawn into fights unprepared like some stupid NPC villain. He'll happily bamf around the universe until he contrives a way to meet his enemy on his own

You cannot guarantee that these creatures will not kill or betray you. More likely to be killed. This wizard does not last 2 weeks.

And now you have a Sorcerer who had to take a feat to do a Wizard thing so that he could avoid one spell from a guy who knows at least 43 other spells, and possibly many more.

We are in a level 11 vs level 20 fight and are you complaining about the feat? At equal levels the Wizard would be completely destroyed, with no chance of surviving.

He didn't get mighty letting himself be drawn into fights unprepared like some stupid NPC villain. He'll happily bamf around the universe until he contrives a way to meet his enemy on his own terms.

You are the only level 20 in the game with infinite resources and you are being countered by a level 11 Sorcerer without any resources.

I call straw man if the game has infinite resources then that means there a lOOOOOT of people with LOOOOOTS of resources, nobles, other magic users, Clerics, sorcerers, Paladins, outsiders etc who are most likely not friendly to the wizard. Your argument for his success actually weakens your position. And yes one good successful high damage hit usually means dead wizard. Even though people have been trying to sell this siren song that wizards are undefeatable.

 

[Hohige]

I call straw man if the game has infinite resources then that means there a lOOOOOT of people with LOOOOOTS of resources, nobles, other magic users, Clerics, sorcerers, Paladins, outsiders etc who are most likely not friendly to the wizard. Your argument for his success actually weakens your position. And yes one good successful high damage hit usually means dead wizard. Even though people have been trying to sell this siren song that wizards are undefeatable.

Lol, the best thing about it is that they think buyin people will save him from being killed quickly for his fortune. "Evil laughter".
Do this, place hired creatures in his fortness
The fact is, a level 20 Wizard being defeated by a level 11 Sorcerer is sad.

 

[Stalker0]

A lot of interesting discussion has sprung up! Its good to see

So I thought it was worth commenting on a couple of themes pop up:

1) What constitutes "ruling the world"?

People have asked if the Wizard has to be iron fisted or maniacal, can ruling by proxies work, etc etc. Ultimately, I would say the Wizard can "rule" in any way you see fit. My thought would be, a wizard that rules the world can effectively leverage any resource of that world at his whim, and can inflict his whim on the world in a large scale. For example, if the Wizard needs an army, he can have it mustered. If he needs a particular magic item or treasure the world possesses, people will give it to him. If he needs to sacrifice a young maiden to fulfill a dark ambition, people will (even if reluctantly) provide them one. If he declares a new edict in a country, it becomes law. Now whether the world knows they are providing said resource to the "Wizard" or whether they knew new edicts are coming from the "Wizard" is up to the poster, its fine if the wizard works through a proxy or people do it because of beliefs, threats, mental influence, whatever.

Now that doesn't mean the control is absolute. I could absolutely see periodic rebellions and underground insurgencies. But we are assuming a level of control where these are more "annoyances" than true threats to the wizard's power. If a rebellion has grown to truly challenge the wizards authority, than the Wizard can no longer be considered to rule the world.


2) How to win the argument.

So I think there are two key factors you have to prove in order to say a wizard can rule the world.

a) Step 1: Rule the World
Aka how does the Wizard exist such considerable influence on the world? Is it a hammer, meteor swarming any who oppose you and taking an iron fist. Is it slower, more influence, domination, and politics. Or going super slow, literally changing cultural paradigms. Or something inbetween.

b) Step 2: Beat the Resistance
At some point, its assumed that the other powerful people of the world would attempt to counter the Wizard, or the Wizard would look to systematically take out the powerful people. So the question becomes, how effective would the Wizard be at countering these threats?

c) General Beats Specific

So a lot of discussion has been on the Aberrant Mind Sorc vs the Wizard. I think its an interesting discussion. My main counter would be it assumes that a 10th level character (already established to be pretty rare) is a sorceror (even rarer) and then is a specific subclass (rarer still). So the likelihood that one would exist in a world is pretty low (though clearly pretty effective)

Lets contrast that to the 10th level cleric argument. While 10th level clerics are still pretty rare based on our assumptions, any subclass will work....so the chance that one of these exist in the world is a lot more likely.

And of course, strategies that work with groups of lower level spellcasters are even a better argument, as those are common enough that we could safely assume a world would have them.

So ultimately the best arguments to me are the ones that rely on a less and less specific circumstances.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Technically, Hire is not reliable. Do you want to dominate the world for it? This Wizard doesn't survive more than 2 weeks without a reliable minions.

I am already an excellent Wizard slayer. Ritual caster feat to access Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell. "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." (PHB p255) It can be cast as a ritual by a 5th level caster (it's a 3rd level Wizard spell) and it lasts for 8 hours; long enough for a Long Rest. The Mighty Wizard being forced to retreat so as not to die?
Now, the sorcerer continues to destroy his fortress freely as the Wizard has fled

The hut can just be dispelled and then the wizard literally murders the sorcerer in his sleep. It's not really a thing.