21st lvl Wizard killing anything that lives? Even gods and epic monsters???

[MaxHavoc]

It seems to me that epic spellcasting is way too overpowered, given enough money you can create a spell that will utterly crush all. My reasons for this are as follows:

1) All epic spells are based on one Spellcraft DC. Theoretically if you had an unlimited spellcraft you could cast an infinitely powerful spell.

2) Because it is based only on a DC and not on the ranks you have it is theoretically not level based.

3) You can purchase items that give bonuses to skills and these items are really cheap.

4) The base cost for an item that increases a skill is skill bonus^2 * 20 gp, this is really really really cheap and far too overpowered. What is to prevent a character from crafting a ring or something that gives them a sick bonus to spellcraft?

5) Why does all this matter? Simple, using the SEED Slay as a base you can add to the DC that the target needs to match to save and you can also add to the caster level check to overcome spell resistance. I created a spell just for fun that has a DC of 413. Here's the math: SEED(Slay DC 25) + Quicken (DC +28) + Increase DC by 90 (DC +180) + Increase Caster Level by 90 (DC +180). I built a lvl 30 Wizard who can cast this spell with ease because he has an item of spellcraft +350, this cost 2,450,000 GP. Price taken straight from Tome and Blood. There is no creature even in the epic level book or any god that can withstand this spell, it requires a FORT save with a DC of at least 110. Doesn't this seem a tad overpowered? The reason I say lvl 21 Wizard is because it would be very easy to make a lvl 21 Wizard who could cast a very similar spell, the only limitation is money, and obviously a lvl 21 character would have less money.

 

[Crothian]

4) The base cost for an item that increases a skill is skill bonus^2 * 20 gp, this is really really really cheap and far too overpowered. What is to prevent a character from crafting a ring or something that gives them a sick bonus to spellcraft?

From bonus of +1 to +30, this is correct. For bonus of +31 and higher the price is times 10, so bonus squared times 200.

But all that is really important in the balance is the DM. He alone decides what is balanced for his game and what is not.

 

[gfunk]

Unfortunately, you seemed to have missed a few key phrases when it comes to Epic Level magic item construction.

ELH, p 124

"If your item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in the Dungeon Master's Guide, multipy the portion of the market price derived from the characteristic by 10."

The maximum skill bonus granted by the DMG is +30 (Ring of Jump). Therefore, you can safely +350 skill items are beyond the limits of the DMG's (and of course, T&B, which simply clarifies and expands the DMG rules) item creation rules.

Threfore, the price for your item would be:

(350)^2*20*10 = 24,500,000

Now I don't know too many characters with ~24 million gp lying around, but hey, your campaign may be the exception.

Now,

ELH, p. 124,

"For all epic magic items other than scrolls, divide the market price by 100, then add 10,000 XP to the result."

So, your item would cost 246,000 XP.

Probably you'll have to wait before you could burn that much XP w/o losing a level.

And yes at ~100th level, you would probably strike fear into the hearts of all but the greatest of deities.

<edited for Fuzzy math>

 

[MaxHavoc]

Ahhh! I see, I have yet to read the entire ELH and I didn't see the comment on page 124. Thank you for the clarification. I still don't like the fact that money is the only thing in the rules that stops a player from striking down a god with a wave of his hand.

 

[gfunk]

Ahhh! I see, I have yet to read the entire ELH and I didn't see the comment on page 124. Thank you for the clarification. I still don't like the fact that money is the only thing in the rules that stops a player from striking down a god with a wave of his hand.

Don't forget the XP cost. The item you proposed will put you 245,000 XP in the hole. You can't afford that cost w/o losing a level for a long, long time.

 

[MaxHavoc]

While going back to the drawing board trying to come up with a character that can kill a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon at the lowest level I forgot something. While an individual item rises exponentially in price above +30 to a skill, items can confer any bonus they want, thus you can just have a headband, goggles, rings, bracers, gloves etc.... of +30 to spellcraft and STILL have an obscene spellcraft score and STILL be able to thwap a god without thought, Yes the XP thing kind of ruins my evil plan, but now money is no longer really an obstacle, unless there is a limit on how much bonus a skill can get (kind of like stats can only have a +5 inherent bonus).

 

[gfunk]

While going back to the drawing board trying to come up with a character that can kill a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon at the lowest level I forgot something. While an individual item rises exponentially in price above +30 to a skill, items can confer any bonus they want, thus you can just have a headband, goggles, rings, bracers, gloves etc.... of +30 to spellcraft and STILL have an obscene spellcraft score and STILL be able to thwap a god without thought, Yes the XP thing kind of ruins my evil plan, but now money is no longer really an obstacle, unless there is a limit on how much bonus a skill can get (kind of like stats can only have a +5 inherent bonus).

However, to develop the Epic Spell that you mentioned would still cost around 3 million gp and 130,000 XP. These costs, of course, would be on top of the items you created for the Spellcraft boosts.

 

[the Jester]

If any of these items' bonuses are named (enhancement, whatever) they won't stack. As a dm, I can easily see a house rule that unnamed skill bonuses don't stack.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Not to mention that you would have to have at least half the bonus in skill ranks to make it. Or you would need to know a 172nd level wizard to make it for you.

 

[Zenon]

I believe any skill bonus items in the DMG are stated as "circumstance" bonuses (Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind for example), so I would carry through on this for any item created which gives a skill bonus. Thus a bunch a multiple different slot skill bonus items would all have the same type of bonus, and as such they would not stack.

This seems to be the easiest way to deal with that.