D&D 3E/3.5 [3.0/3.5] GMW and Sunder

[daemonslye]

A quick clarification needed:

What is the "plus" in relation to a sunder attempt
against a (for example):

+1 flaming longsword with GMW +3 cast on it?

a) +3 (only GMW)
b) +4 (still flaming and +3 GMW)
c) +2 (no benefit for GMW)
d) +5 (everything stacks! go monty!)

(GMW=greater magic weapon);

Question is to clear up the "only sunder a weapon
of your weapon's bonus or higher" rule.

Thanks

~D

 

[Artoomis]

a) +3 (only GMW)
b) +4 (still flaming and +3 GMW)
c) +2 (no benefit for GMW)
d) +5 (everything stacks! go monty!)

It can only be either "+1" or "+3" if the GMW counts.

Whether or not GMW counts depends on how your view the following:

:... An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck...

...Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls[.../quote]

The question comes down to:

When MW or GMW "gives" a wepon an enhancement bonus, is it the same thing as a wepon "having" that enhancement bonus. Naturally, this only matters for sundering.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Also note that that particular rule is absent from 3.5.

 

[Vurt]

Also note that that particular rule is absent from 3.5.

3.5 DMG p.222 at the very top of the page under Hardness and Hit Points:

"An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck."

-- Vurt

 

[Azure Trance]

He should get sure striking enchancement. +1 ability, counts as +5.

 

[Spatzimaus]

3.5 DMG p.222 at the very top of the page under Hardness and Hit Points:

"An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck."

There are two problems with accepting this as is.

1> That rule was in the 3E PHB in the "stike a weapon"/Sunder section. It's been removed from that section in 3.5E.

2> Also on that same line it says 1 point of Enhancement bonus gives +1 HP and +1 Hardness, just like in 3E. The problem being, the new 3.5E DMG gives THREE contradictory clauses for this. For shields, it's listed as +10 HP and +2 Hardness. For armors, it's not listed at all. And for shields, that "must have a higher Enhancement bonus" clause has been removed, even though armor/shields are covered under the same Sunder rules as weapons in both 3E and 3.5E.

So, it looks to me like that line on weapons was accidentally left over from 3E, and the way it's written for shields (+2 Hardness, +10 HP, no Sunder limit) is the way it's SUPPOSED to be now and someone just forgot to update it when they did the rest.

I guess we'll have to wait until they release errata to fix all of these contradictory sections. Yeah, right.

 

[Vurt]

There are two problems with accepting this as is.

1> That rule was in the 3E PHB in the "stike a weapon"/Sunder section. It's been removed from that section in 3.5E.

Well, I just see it as making the rule more general. Presumably, you don't only damage weapons with sundering attempts, but can also attack unclaimed weapons as well. It may well have been removed from the PHB because it was considered redundant, and to make room for some other topic. Also, I don't see any contradictory statements to indicate that the rule has been changed in some way from the previous addition.

2> Also on that same line it says 1 point of Enhancement bonus gives +1 HP and +1 Hardness, just like in 3E. The problem being, the new 3.5E DMG gives THREE contradictory clauses for this. For shields, it's listed as +10 HP and +2 Hardness. For armors, it's not listed at all. And for shields, that "must have a higher Enhancement bonus" clause has been removed, even though armor/shields are covered under the same Sunder rules as weapons in both 3E and 3.5E.

So, it looks to me like that line on weapons was accidentally left over from 3E, and the way it's written for shields (+2 Hardness, +10 HP, no Sunder limit) is the way it's SUPPOSED to be now and someone just forgot to update it when they did the rest.

You can't sunder worn armour, only weapons and shields, which is why it isn't listed. I don't know why you can't sunder armour.

It looks to me like the +1 hp and +1 hardness per enhancement bonus has been changed to +10 hp and +2 hardness overall, and as you say, that these changed weren't properly edited into the material. But the very reason that section wasn't simply dropped may have been because the enhancement bonus requirement to sunder magical weapons and shields hasn't changed and nobody thought to check what came after.

For reference and comparison:

3.5 PHB p.165: +1 enhancement gives +2 hardness and +10 hp to armour, shields and weapons.

3.5 DMG p.217: +1 enhancement gives +2 hardness and +10 hp to shields

3.5 DMG p.222: +1 enhancement gives and +1 hardness and +1 hp to weapons and shields

3.0 PHB p.136: +1 enhancement gives and +1 hardness and +1 hp to weapons and shields

3.0 DMG p.179: +1 enhancement gives and +1 hardness and +1 hp to shields

3.0 DMG p.184: +1 enhancement gives and +1 hardness and +1 hp to weapons and shields


However, none of this directly deals with whether your magic weapon can sunder another or not, only the after effects for when you do manage to successfully damage said item.

While I can see your point, the rule we were originally discussing is still there, even if it is buried under the magic weapons section. The fact that some of the rules following contradicts other rules in the same edition and are therefore suspect, may or may not have any bearing on the specific rule in question. I dunno, it could go either way, but until it does *cough* eratta *cough*, well, the rule is still there.

I guess we'll have to wait until they release errata to fix all of these contradictory sections. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I'm holding out for a second printing myself. (Borrowed the new books from one of my players.) *sigh*

-- Vurt

 

[kender]

There's another aspect of the new Sunder not yet pointed out...
what happens when a monster with DR/magic (eg a dragon) tries to Sunder an offending weapon?
which is the "magic" enhancement bonus of its natural attacks?
and what about elementals that now have DR/- ?

My conclusions are that each +weapon can sunder another +weapon or shield, regardless of the bonus, like a dragon or an elemental can do it...
before elementals had the Sunder ability and i can guess they possess now Improved Sunder (I don't have 3.5E manuals yet) but w/o the chance of breaking magic items, what they have IS for? breaking common weapons?

 

[Vurt]

Good point, kender. Hadn't thought about that one.

More food for thought is the magic weapon "Shatterspike", a +1 longsword that can be used to specifically sunder weapons, on p.228 of the 3.5 DMG., in which the last line reads :

"Shatterspike can damage weapons with an enhancement bonus of +4 or lower."

If any magic weapon could damage any other magic weapon, or indeed, any weapon could damage any other regardless of enhancement, then this line would certainly be redundant at best and misleading at worst.

Oh, I checked and it isn't directly taken from the Sunless Citadel in which the weapon originally appeared; there has been some editing along the way to tighten up the language.

-- Vurt

 

[kender]

Good point, kender. Hadn't thought about that one.

More food for thought is the magic weapon "Shatterspike", a +1 longsword that can be used to specifically sunder weapons, on p.228 of the 3.5 DMG., in which the last line reads :

"Shatterspike can damage weapons with an enhancement bonus of +4 or lower."

If any magic weapon could damage any other magic weapon, or indeed, any weapon could damage any other regardless of enhancement, then this line would certainly be redundant at best and misleading at worst.

-- Vurt

Well, this changes the point of view... if that weapon can be used to sunder highly enhanced weapons, sundering magic weapons should be the same of 3.0 and I have nothing against this, it worked quite well.
But now it lacks consistency with some sundering monsters (unless considering their attacks equivalent to a +5 weapon)... the same elemental could sunder with the same ease a +5 or a +1 weapon (or shield), while the latter couldn't even scratch the +5 one...


Maybe I should wait for a errated 2nd printing... and according to my beliefs it won't happen before 6 months or a year...