D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Eldritch knight abilities?

[LokiDR]

But what about my buff-based Ranger (Archer)/Sorcerer, who uses mobility spells and buffing spells to get into good sniping positions and then chills there? Or my reach-based Fighter/Wizard, who wants to stand behind the lines in a fairly large party and use a reach weapon to contribute to melee, and then use his Wizard spells entirely to increase his out-of-combat role? Or an unarmed Monk/Wizard (which, yes, I understand that the EK will probably not provide for) who is really uninterested in using a weapon to channel spells/replace material components, or getting an ASF reduction? What about the Fighter/Rogue/Wizard who wants to use Wizard abilities to selectively enhance either his Fighter or Rogue role on a given day?

All of those are only helped by giving the eldrich knight ASF reduction. You then have the option to wear some armors without penalty. It opens up options. You are arguing for narrower options. You are limiting the class options and flavor.

Your ranger is probably going to want to use his spells for mobility, not replacing his armor. Buff spell durations are much lower now. Your reach characer wants to be at least a passable element of a fight. But you will have to spend half your spells just to be ready for combat. If your monk dosn't want the armor, it is his choice, you don't NEED to wear it.

Another idea to give the class flavor without forcing them into some role is craft wand. Wands don't have ASF, so they can be used like secondary (or primary) weapons in combat. Flavor without limiting. You don't have to make wands, by you could.

Hell, even giving a bonus feat of any metamagic, item creation, or fighter feat would more interesting. Still wide open, opening more options in fact, but not as boring.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

All of those are only helped by giving the eldrich knight ASF reduction. You then have the option to wear some armors without penalty. It opens up options. You are arguing for narrower options. You are limiting the class options and flavor.

Yes, but nobody buys your claim that the EK should be given ASF reduction for free.

And my argument was not specifically directed at LokiDR's Oddly Vehement Feeling That The EK Is A Terrible Class Now, But Would Be A Perfect Class If It Just Granted ASF Reduction, but at jasin's broader argument that PrC's should globally be given "flavor."

 

[Mike Sullivan]

IMO, they too would be better off with an eldritch knight that merged fighting and spellcasting into a single whole, instead of just giving out an acceptable amount of fighting and an acceptable amount of spellcasting.

I'm not objecting generic, I'm objecting the fact that the class offers nothing new.

It's. Not. Supposed. To. Offer. Something. New.

It's supposed to provide a replacement for multiclassing. It's supposed to serve the people who wanted to multiclass. Multiclassed characters don't get new powers that neither of their base classes get. Why in the world would something that replaces multiclassing give them that?

And why would someone who's trying to replacing multiclassing want that? It's not like class features just get thrown into PrC's for free. If it grants you an effective Eschew Materials feat, if it gives you ASF reduction, if you can cast touch spells and make a standard attack at the same time, you pay for that. Lower spellcasting progression, worse hit dice, fewer skills, narrower fighting style selection (probably due to fewer feats), something like that.

As you say, the Mnk/Wiz isn't particularly well served by the EK either.

We suppose that this is true. We aren't 100% sure -- and in any case, it's a failure of the EK if it is true.

The Ftr/Rog/Wiz could take some levels in EK and some in arcane trickster.

...and he'd be more served by that, the more generic EK and AT are.

Your examples make it sound as if the EK is supposed to solve the problem of weak arcane-caster/not-arcane-caster multiclasses. It's not, and it won't. It's supposed to solve the problem of weak arcane-caster/warrior-type multiclasses. It's not intended for a Mnk/Wiz or a Ftr/Rog/Wiz who focuses equally on fighting and rogue stuff.

Monk is a warrior class, and always has been. And of course it's desinged for a Ftr/Rog/Wiz, though, as you point out, they may also want to take some Arcane Trickster class levels.

It's intended for a warrior/caster, so why not give them some warrior/caster abilties, instead of just warrior abilities and caster abilities? It could still be plenty generic: v. arcane trickster.

For the record, I have no idea how generic Arcane Trickster is -- I don't have whatever book the 3.0 version is in, and I don't know how changed it is for 3.5. I'm perfectly prepared to hate it because it's not generic enough.

 

[LokiDR]

The lack of armor means the typical fighter/wizard should be willing to accept a "small" amount of Arcane Spell Failure. I mean, whats 10%? How much will that impact a character? Most people treat any arcane spell failure as if it was 100%. Granted, it may come at inopportune times, and it may be irritating to roll the percentile all the time, but to me it seems like a fun archtype. And for those times when you NEED a spell to go off, a prudent fighter/wizard would wear armor and have still spell memorized on the spell. Whats the problem exactly?

You have never tried this, have you? Giving all enemies/allies an extra SR of your casting level +2 is large bonus. It is unterly stupid and a waste of resources.

Heck it might be fun, with such a character, to occasionally don really heavy armor (even the heaviest only has what, 40% ASF? - your spells on average will still work more than half the time!) if the situation warrants. Does that mean you arent a wizard anymore? Nah, you can still break out some wands or chance the ASF, but mostly you should be playing a support-fighter role, or possibly a front-line fighter role (note: you wont last as long as someone with more HD).

You are limiting the concept the same way multiclass is limited. Those limits prevent compelling concepts and pigenhole characters. I want to be able to choose to be frontline fighter/mage or support. My class should not dictate that. Some limits should exist, so that platemail always has problems. But I should be able to wear a breastplate if I want. I don't have the HP, but make up for it with spells like false life/stoneskin.

Before:

Ftr4/Wiz12 - I'm a fighter/wizard! I'm 2 spell levels behind everyone else...and -4 on spell penetration checks for my level..but I have martial weapon use - but only BAB +10/+4! I have 3 bonus fighter feats including weapon spec!

Ftr1/Wiz5/ElK10 - I'm a fighter wizard. I cast spells 1 level behind and -2 on spell penetration checks for my level, but my BAB is +13/+8/+3. I have 2 bonus fighter feats.

There is nothing new. You are just traded a fighter feat for 3 BAB and two caster levels. A high powered trade, but not interesting. You still suffer all other penalties inherant in trying to cast spells on the battlefield in or around melee. It is better than the alternative, but it is still not interesting.

I don't want compelling game mechanics, I want balanced game mechanics.

Call me picky, but I want an attempt at both. I want the game to be fun, and boring PrC take the fun out of it.

Actually they are "supposed" to exist together, as written in OA. Samurai represented a special class, not unlike a paladin, which was both an order and a caste unto itself. Fighter was still useful to display a high level bandit, a weapons master, or someone with martial prowess who wasn't a samurai. While the concepts of the mechanics are the same (d10 hp, good BAB, bonus feats) the reasons for playing them and the stories woven from them differ.

Technik

They weren't an order, they were a caste. And it is a stupid overlap. The coexists of those two classes is as dumb as EK. Overlap is bad.

A lot of religions don't have PrC classes to represent their specialty clerics. Why? Because normal multiclassing should suffice. Where the PrC are put in, it is to make the cleric concept workable and interesting.

 

[Technik4]

I'm perfectly prepared to hate it because it's not generic enough

One of my few complaints with the original Arcane Trickster (Tome and Blood) was that it was not generic enough. Some of the skills required were a little "out there" for a rogue to take (Decipher Script + Escape Artist), but thankfully wizards have Decipher Script as a class skill now.

You have never tried this, have you? Giving all enemies/allies an extra SR of your casting level +2 is large bonus. It is unterly stupid and a waste of resources

I don't think using a char with ASF is utterly stupid, no. Optimal? Maybe not, but at some point the numbers become the background for the game. Most adventurers by their nature are gamblers, wearing something that means 80% of the time your spells WILL go off seems like a safe bet, especially if you hedge it with some stilled spells for when you absolutely MUST have a spell go off. Remember, characters aren't accountants sitting there crunching numbers, they are living and dying daily, some just choose an all-the-time bonus (like armor) if it doesn't substantially weaken them. Which ASF does not.

Anyway, heres my shot at an Eldritch Knight:
[Shooting for BAB 16, 9th level spells]

Human/Half-Elf/Elf/Dwarf

1-Wiz1 Feat, Sribe Scroll. BAB +0. 1st level spells
2-Wiz2 BAB +1
3-Wiz3 Feat, 2nd level spells
4-Ftr1 Fighter Feat. BAB +2
5-Wiz4 BAB +3
6- Wiz5 Feat, Metamagic Feat, 3rd level spells
7-EK1 Fighter Feat. BAB +4
9-EK2 Feat. BAB +5
10-EK3 4th level spells. BAB +6/+1
11-EK4 BAB +7/+2
12-EK5 Feat, 5th level spells. BAB +8/+3
13-EK6 BAB +9/+4
14-EK7 6th level spells. BAB +10/+5
15-EK8 Feat, BAB +11/+6/+1
16-EK9 7th level spells. BAB +12/+7/+2
17-EK10 BAB +13/+8/+3
18-
19-
20-

Can't be done without another prc. You need a prc which will give BAB +1/level as well as +1 spellcasting/level or you will miss out on either BAB +16 or 9th level spells. Obviously if you are going epic, you want the spell levels and can just take wizard levels (or a wizard prc - War Wizard of Cormyr is a good fit).

Technik

 

[James McMurray]

I want the game to be fun, and boring PrC take the fun out of it.

There are no boring classes, only boring charaters.

 

[Destil]

You have never tried this, have you? Giving all enemies/allies an extra SR of your casting level +2 is large bonus. It is unterly stupid and a waste of resources.

There's a nice cross-section of spells [I lost my list on my last HDD format or I'd post it] at all levels witout somatic components. Highlights include suggestion, dimention door, displacement, prismatic sphere, [limited] wish & the power words. You could easily build a spell-caster around them, and with still spell for when you really needed some other effects (face it, 4th level damage spells really suck anyway. Just stick a fireball in there) ASF isn't even an issue, as long as you're smart about spell selectin. It limits you a little, but it's nothing crippling.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

There's a nice cross-section of spells [I lost my list on my last HDD format or I'd post it] at all levels witout somatic components. Highlights include suggestion, dimention door, displacement, prismatic sphere, [limited] wish & the power words.

Teleport!

True Strike.

 

[DiFier]

I currentlly have a fighter2/wizard6/spellsword4 I was hoping that the spellsword was gonna get buffed in 3.5 but that doesn't seem to have happened.

When Our last session ended about 2 months ago. we decieded that we would wait untill 3.5 came out to level our charachters. We had gotten almost enought XP to make it to 14th level. I haven't decieded what I'm gonna level in. I might add the Eldridgh Knight PRC.

The spell sword is a little underpowered but it isn't bad. I like the flavor. I like the special abilities. I wish that the caster level progression was faster but I'm in a small group we are all multiclassed. We can't have anyone just do one thing.

 

[LokiDR]

Yes, but nobody buys your claim that the EK should be given ASF reduction for free.

And my argument was not specifically directed at LokiDR's Oddly Vehement Feeling That The EK Is A Terrible Class Now, But Would Be A Perfect Class If It Just Granted ASF Reduction, but at jasin's broader argument that PrC's should globally be given "flavor."

You missed the point. No, I think you are ignoring it.

I originally protested about EK being boring as hell but balanced. It needed something to make it more interesting. ASF is a good flavor, fitting concept and not too powereful. I don't care about ASF, but the class needs SOMETHING.