D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Help my bard contribute [Thanks guys!]

[Wippit Guud]

My bad, 2500... it's the same as books or cloak of elvenkind, you're just picking a different skill.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

My bad, 2500... it's the same as books or cloak of elvenkind, you're just picking a different skill.

Excellent. Now I'll have to see if an Amulet of UMD or some such is available. This is a great idea, though. Even better, depending on what the party's eventual composition turns out to be.

 

[Tellerve]

+5 item is 2500gp, a +10 item is 10,000gp

Tellerve

 

[Lord Pendragon]

+5 item is 2500gp, a +10 item is 10,000gp

I went and checked out the SRD myself, and this is indeed correct. Skill items have been nerfed all to heck. I doubt my PC will purchase a +10 skill item...ever. And he hardly has the money at this point, so I guess that puts me back at my (roughly) 10th-level UMD plan.

 

[Wippit Guud]

My bad again, never thought to check the item description for how much bonus they give.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Thanks to everyone who gave me ideas and pointers on playing/building a bard!

We rolled for stats on Sunday, and my bard wound up with:
12 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 15 Cha.

We start at 5th-level, so I put his 4th-level attribute point into Charisma.

For feats, I went with:
*Dodge
*Mobility
*Weapon Finesse

I'll pick up Spring Attack at 6th, and probably Expertise or Great Fortitude at 9th, with Improved Disarm (or Expertise) at 12th.

We chose equipment packages, and I picked a mithral breastplate, masterwork weapon (a whip-dagger), 2 potions of cure moderate wounds, 2 potions of bull's strength, and an adamantine battleaxe.

I know, I have no use for an adamantine battleaxe p) but I really wanted that mithral breastplate! I'm hoping to trade the battleaxe either with another party member, or perhaps with a mage. With a +18 to Diplomacy, I may be able to pursuade him to let me trade for full value (the battleaxe is worth 3010gp, so if he gives me that value in services, it'll be enough to get my whip-dagger and breastplate enchanted to a +1). We'll see.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who gave me plenty of great ideas for playing, creating, and maximizing a bard's potential.

 

[Adam Coath]

There's a lot of good stuff here! Heh. Well, it's an interesting idea, and I've thought of going the longsword route rather than rapier, but a longsword can't be finessed and I don't want yet another stat to try and raise. I've already got to worry about dex and cha, and str won't be great to start because I'd like a good int for the skill points. (Especially in 3.5, where only permananent, inherent bonuses increase skill points later.)With heavy armor, I have to deal with ASF, and a bard doesn't get enough spells to begin with, without losing more to ASF...Actually, fighter would probably fit better chronologically than bard, but since he's starting at 5th-level, I've decided to min-max his first five levels as much as possible (the bard has enough problems as it is.) That means 1st-level bard (for more skill points) and 5th-level fighter, (so he can qualify for Spring Attack.)

If you are going that route you aren't really a bard. You are a fighter with inspire courage and a few cantrips, and 4 ranks each in some bard skills. If want be good at bardic abilities this isn't really an option. Making charisma you highest score is almost wasted on this character.So how do you make a 6th level bard effective in melee combat with only 4 feats?

How about taking exotic weapon spiked chain, weapon finess, combat reflexes and power attack? Since you can't afford spring attack as well you are going to want to max out your tumble skill, so you attack and get out of combat, and force the enemy to close on you. This prevent the opponent from getting there full iterative attacks, and allows you to do attacks of opportunity(for opponents without reach at least). This character should be able to get enough attacks of opportunity to make up for the relatively low damage.

The problem with fairly low strength is that you won't be doing enough damage in combat to actually make much of a difference. Assuming you have only only around 13 str you will only do an average of 6 pts per hit. (11.5 if you use a +1 shocking spiked chain, and are using inspire courage). Power attack will let you take -4 penalty to hit to do an extra +8 damage. At this point your hits are starting to get worthwhile.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If you are going that route you aren't really a bard. You are a fighter with inspire courage and a few cantrips, and 4 ranks each in some bard skills.

Weeeell, I tend to believe that you are more of whatever you have more levels in. So a Fighter2/Bard3 is a fighting bard. While a Fighter3/Bard2 is a bardic fighter. And originally I had planned to go Fighter2/Bard18, so he'd still have been very much a bard. His bardic abilities would simply have been delayed.

If want be good at bardic abilities this isn't really an option.

This is true. Another poster also mentioned this. It's important to remember that despite having only 6 spell levels, bards gain full caster level advancement. So loss of levels can hurt them as it hurts any other full spellcaster. Also, they do get some nice gems on their spell list (Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Modify Memory,) so its a good idea to keep up with spell progression.

How about taking exotic weapon spiked chain, weapon finess, combat reflexes and power attack? Since you can't afford spring attack as well you are going to want to max out your tumble skill, so you attack and get out of combat, and force the enemy to close on you. This prevent the opponent from getting there full iterative attacks, and allows you to do attacks of opportunity(for opponents without reach at least). This character should be able to get enough attacks of opportunity to make up for the relatively low damage.

This is an interesting idea, though I decided not to go with it for a few reasons. Firstly, my bard is really, really effective in a town environment. He's human, so he gains a total of 9 skill points each level, and at 5th-level will have a Diplomacy of +17, plus various other social skills. So I don't need him to compete with the fighter in damage output. My focus was merely to do the best I could with the combat potential of the character, so that he isn't totally useless in a fight.

Having said that, I decided on mobility and flexibility for my bard. He won't do a serious amount of damage no matter what I do (mid-level BAB makes Power Attack a poor choice, no sneak attack means no crutch,) so I thought I'd focus on having him be where he needs to be, when he needs to be. To this end I went with a whip-dagger as his main weapon (1d6 19-20/x2). It's a nice exotic weapon that the bard (and only the bard) gets free proficiency with. The whip has a powerful 15' reach. Combine that with Expeditious Retreat, a high Tumble, and Spring Attack, and he should be able to attack whomever, and from wherever, he wants. The downside to the whip is that it provokes AoOs and does not threaten, but with his mobility options he should have no problem avoiding AoOs, and he'll be wearing a spiked gauntlet to threaten with.

His damage will begin at 1d6+1. Not the greatest amount, granted. I'm hoping that a shocking enchantment, followed by (or preceded by if I'm lucky enough,) a wounding enchantment. That'd provide an extra d6 of damage plus Con damage, which is always nice.

The problem with fairly low strength is that you won't be doing enough damage in combat to actually make much of a difference. Assuming you have only only around 13 str you will only do an average of 6 pts per hit. (11.5 if you use a +1 shocking spiked chain, and are using inspire courage). Power attack will let you take -4 penalty to hit to do an extra +8 damage. At this point your hits are starting to get worthwhile.

As I noted above, taking a -4 to hit when you have a mid-level BAB is probably not a good idea. You have to hit to do Power Attack damage, and a -4 is seriously going to cut into that ability. My bard only has a 12 strength, but I'm hoping that he can get some weapon enchantments to help him provide a bigger punch. He also has a couple potions of bull's strength if a fight gets really serious. As the whip is now a melee weapon, it gains strength damage the same as any other.

Also, here is where strategy comes into things. I've already noted that, as far as me playing a bard, I like to be able to go into melee myself (rather than just sing from the back shooting arrows,) and get some of the glory that my bard will then sing about. However, there are more ways to contribute in melee than straight damage. Other thing's I've considered:

* Flanking with the rogue: I can bump up my AC to 24 with Alter Self, and if I fight defensively (5 ranks in Tumble) AC 27. This could allow me to flank for the rogue, but be fairly well-protected from assault (at least at our level). My attacks may not hit (I'd be at a -4 to hit) but my own attack only does 1d6+1, while the rogue gains +2d6 or more from a successful sneak attack.

* Aiding Another. From a safe 15' away, my bard can Aid Another and give the fighter a +2 to attack vs. the Iron Golem p).

And of course he also has his spells, though most of those I've chosen (and on the entire bard spell list, for that matter,) are support spells.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I agree with you that arrows are very powerful, especially for a bard that wants to stay out of combat. My problem? I want to play someone who sometimes goes into melee. But sings songs. I recognize the strength of archery, but as a player, I'm not exactly excited by it.

If you want to be a melee bard with full bard levels go for one of the simple reach weapons like spear. You can still whack things while singing and casting is much easier. AC and spring-attack becomes more of a non-issue, especially if you make sure to keep the fighter between you and the reach-monster so that if it goes for you the fighter gets an AoO. (Unless it's a Giant with tumble; then you're screwed but have an incredible mental image to share at the gaming store)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Unless it's a Giant with tumble; then you're screwed but have an incredible mental image to share at the gaming store

Hahaha. That is an intriguing mental image. Stone Giant Monks, perhaps?