D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Help my bard contribute [Thanks guys!]

[Lord Pendragon]

I dunno about the revision, but in 3.0 a Trip attempt was a straight Strength contest. Who is gonna have a higher strength, you or a deticated combat character/monster? Likewise Disarm is a straight opposed attack roll. Who's gonna win that one, a Bard or the +1BAB/level classes? Both options, disard and trip, for a Bard it would be easier to just drop your weapon without even bothering to attack

I agree absolutely. That's why I wouldn't bother trying to Trip or Disarm, unless I had the proper feat (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm) to prevent the counter-attempt.

You might be able to pull off a Disarm, if your DEX is so high that it can compensate for a lower BAB. I wouldn't bet on it though.

A bard has a mid-range BAB, so the fighter isn't going to be so overpowering that a bard doesn't have a chance to win this contest. Will a fighter-type have an edge? Sure. But then you have to consider:

You're a bard, who doesn't do much damage. Which is more useful, striking a foe for 1d6 (or 1d8 for a bow) damage, or putting the foe prone so the fighter's iterative attacks have a better chance of connecting? 1d6...or getting rid of the rogue's short sword so he can't sneak attack the druid?

It's not a sure thing, no, but I don't think it's complete folly, either.

Edited to add: And the whip provides a +2 to disarm checks.

 

[Wippit Guud]

6+ on skill points now... and a ton of skills to take... Synergy Bonuses!

5 in knowledge history = +2 to bardic knowledge
5 in spellcraft = +2 to UMD when reading scrolls
5 in decipher script = another +2 to UMD when reasong scrolls.

I have a level 6 bard (variant from BoEM2 with 6+ skill points), I takes as many skills to 5 ranks just to get the synergy bonus

 

[ZSutherland]

I have to agree whole-heartedly with the person who suggested Barbarian if you're going to multiclass into some warrior class. The extra movement will make Spring Attack much more viable, espacially with a reach weapon. As it is, a Minotaur with a reach weapon can still full attack you despite springing.

Also, I haven't seen the 3.5 write up for Bardic Knowledge, but I noticed only one mention of it here and that was how to get synergy. Depending on how your DM runs the skill, this can be hugely useful. "Hey, guys! The fire's not gonna work on this troll, the bat wings suggest he's probably fiendish!" can save everyone's behind w/o metagaming if your DM is cool with it.

Z

 

[Zaruthustran]

I dunno about the revision, but in 3.0 a Trip attempt was a straight Strength contest. Who is gonna have a higher strength, you or a deticated combat character/monster? Likewise Disarm is a straight opposed attack roll. Who's gonna win that one, a Bard or the +1BAB/level classes? Both options, disard and trip, for a Bard it would be easier to just drop your weapon without even bothering to attack

You might be able to pull off a Disarm, if your DEX is so high that it can compensate for a lower BAB. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Thank goodness for the revision. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm both give +4 to their respective rolls.

So, a Bard with Improved Trip (+4 bonus) and 10 Str attempting to trip a Fighter with a 16 Str (+3 bonus) will succeed more often than he fails.

That's why my Bard character has a 16 Str. His trip and disarm attempts are at +7; very dangerous.

-z

 

[Lord Pendragon]

6+ on skill points now... and a ton of skills to take... Synergy Bonuses!

5 in knowledge history = +2 to bardic knowledge
5 in spellcraft = +2 to UMD when reading scrolls
5 in decipher script = another +2 to UMD when reasong scrolls.

I have a level 6 bard (variant from BoEM2 with 6+ skill points), I takes as many skills to 5 ranks just to get the synergy bonus

I absolutely agree. My current model doesn't have 5 in Spellcraft or Decipher Script at this point (or any in UMD, for that matter) because it doesn't seem really viable until around 10th-level, and I wanted to bump up all his social skills and acrobatic skills (to at least 5 for all the synergies! ) But by 10th level, I hope to have UMD maxed, and 5 in Spellcraft and Decipher Script, if I can manage it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Also, I haven't seen the 3.5 write up for Bardic Knowledge, but I noticed only one mention of it here and that was how to get synergy. Depending on how your DM runs the skill, this can be hugely useful. "Hey, guys! The fire's not gonna work on this troll, the bat wings suggest he's probably fiendish!" can save everyone's behind w/o metagaming if your DM is cool with it.

From the 3.5 SRD:

Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)
A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

DC Type of Knowledge
10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population.
20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends.
25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.

So the DM would have to rule monsters as a kind of "notable people" I guess.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Thank goodness for the revision. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm both give +4 to their respective rolls.

So, a Bard with Improved Trip (+4 bonus) and 10 Str attempting to trip a Fighter with a 16 Str (+3 bonus) will succeed more often than he fails.

That's why my Bard character has a 16 Str. His trip and disarm attempts are at +7; very dangerous.

I hadn't noticed this. Fantastic! But now I'm getting overloaded with choices. Improved Disarm requires Expertise. Hmmm. I may have to take Expertise at 9th, and Improved Disarm at 12th.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Hi Lord Pendragon, the more I read your posts the more I see that your character concept is this:

1. You're dead set on Spring Attack, because you want to be able to avoid being on the wrong end of a full melee attack
2. You prefer melee to ranged combat
3. You want to wear the heaviest Light Armor you can get
4. You're intrigued by the whip and whip dagger (both Str-based melee weapons)

Given all this, I suggest that you ditch the High Dex route in favor of Strength. And I suggest that you use a whip dagger.

This will let you:

1. Ditch Weapon Finesse in favor of another feat, such as Power Attack.
2. "Score" more damage in combat with every hit
3. Have a decent chance at tripping
4. Improve skills like Climb, Swim, Jump
5. Pre-emptively nullify any "wimpy bard" comments

I posted another thread on the advantages of Power Attacking with a whip. Combine a whip's 15' Reach with Spring Attack and you can not only avoid Full Attacks, you can avoid having the monster attack you at all--even if the monster moves! All you have to do is foil a reprisal Charge. That's easy: just fight in uneven terrain, make it so that the monster can't reach you in a straight line (Charges require a straight line), or just apply a Grease spell between you and your foe.

Here're my suggested feats (assuming human):

1. Dodge, Mobility
3. Power Attack
6. Spring Attack

Your Bard song + Power Attack effectively gives you +1 Damage to all your attacks each time you sing (just power attack for 1 each time). Neat.

Alternatively, you can ditch Power Attack in favor of Weapon Expertise, then pick up Improved Disarm or Improved Trip

-z

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Hi Lord Pendragon, the more I read your posts the more I see that your character concept is this:

1. You're dead set on Spring Attack, because you want to be able to avoid being on the wrong end of a full melee attack
2. You prefer melee to ranged combat
3. You want to wear the heaviest Light Armor you can get
4. You're intrigued by the whip and whip dagger (both Str-based melee weapons)

You have it exactly right.

Given all this, I suggest that you ditch the High Dex route in favor of Strength. And I suggest that you use a whip dagger.

You raise a lot of interesting points. Here's what my thinking has been thus-far:

1. A Whip-Dagger only offers, at best, a +2 Mighty version, so at most you can only apply 2 points of strength bonus to damage. The whip is "capped" in a fashion that other melee weapons aren't.
2. Mithral Scale Mail is going to be very, very hard to find. It can't be purchased in the DM's homebrew (there's a N/A where its price should be.) So I'm expecting for most of the campaign to be wearing a chain shirt. That means a very low AC. So I'm probably going to have to bump Dex for AC no matter what.
2b. If I'm bumping dex anyway, I might as well tie my attack bonus to it as well, by using Weapon Finesse. This allows me to increase my attack bonus, AC, and ranged bonus with a single stat, and not worry about strength.
3. The bard still only has a mid-range attack bonus. Taking penalties to hit for any reason (Power Attack, TWF, oversized weapons, etc.) seems to compound the problem.

So with these things in mind, I figured that using a feat to consolidate Attack Bonus and Armor Class Bonus, was a good idea. It means one less stat I have to worry about raising. Plus, Weapon Finesse works with all finessable weapons. That means if I come across Sunblade or a Luck Blade, I'll be able to use a high dex for those weapons, too.

That said, you have given me a lot to think about. Switching a focus to strength would mean sacrificing some AC, being a less capable ranged combatant, and having a lower reflex save, as well as those skills which depend upon dex (most notably, Tumble and Balance.) In return, I'd do more damage in melee, and boost skills dependent on strength (Climb, Jump, Swim).

You know, this is why I like starting a new campaign. All the endless possibilities! I need to think about this more...

 

[Darklone]

I'd suggest the high strength route too. You get a reach weapon, Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and Expert Tactician... any 5ft step back and Soundburst might give you another attack vs your stunned opponent(s). Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack may come later. One or two level of fighter might be nice.

For AC, get a chainshirt (no mithral one, AC enhancements are your schtick) and a shield if you wanna go defensive with Expertise.