D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Help my bard contribute [Thanks guys!]

[Lord Pendragon]

Okay, thanks to all the input in this thread, I'm thinking changing my character concept slightly, and going with a single-classed bard:

Feats:
(Human): Dodge
Level 1: Mobility
Level 3: ?
Level 6: Spring Attack

Spells:
0th--Mage Hand, Prestigitation, Summon Instrument, Message, Detect Magic, Read Magic

1st--Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Charm Person

2nd--Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Blur

Thoughts?

I don't have the character's stats yet (we'll determine that at the first session,) so I may go with either a rapier or longsword as his melee weapon (and possibly Weapon Finesse as his 3rd-level feat). Short bow for ranged work. In one level he'll have spring attack, so I can start jumping in and out of melee.

Also, I noticed that the bard has the whip proficiency. Does this mean that he's also proficient with the whip dagger? I've never played a character with a whip before. It has it's drawbacks, but also seems like it could be a fun way for the character to go...

 

[Technik4]

You are actually in a really good position, being able to start at level 5. Personally I think the weakest bard levels are early on, by level 5 you can have any number of different things going to make sure you are always useful (and always "scoring").

You assesed the bard correctly. Medium BAB, no sneak, no power attack. Essentialy, nothing going for him in terms of combat. You are not interested in going the archer-bard way, which I can understand, so below I will outline 2 other bard-archetypes.

Brd4/Sor1 - Bard-Mage
Pros:
-Able to use many types of wands, without UMD.
-Same primary ability score, so no need to worry about having 2 stats to pump (this really only becomes evident with staffs, in 3.5 you can use your own stats, feats, and caster levels to activate staves). Also useful when it comes to bonus spells.
-Sorceror level should pump magical skills (and still allows Bluff progression).
-Great 1st level utility spells that you can't otherwise get - Magic Missile, Prot from Evil will keep you alive.

Cons:
-Not much of a melee combatant, not much of a wizard (without wands and scrolls).
-Weak familiar.
-Slightly lower BAB and HP than straight bard.
-Arcane Spell Failure when casting sorceror spells in armor.

Brd3/Pal2 - Holy Bard
Pros:
-Same martial profs gained as a fighter would (and more than bard).
-Key ability score overlaps nicely, allowing a high Cha to do double duty promoting saves and the occasional smite bonus.
-Singing + Holy Aura means you are born to lead. Getting a cohort would make sense in-game as well as be a good move mechanically.
-Can use scrolls and wands off pal spell list.

Cons:
-2 levels behind on bardic abilities.
-Have to follow the code.
-Not sure if combo is allowed by bard class (but lenient DM may not mind).


Not sure if those are any help. Another good idea may be to become an aasimar, it will cost you a level but it gives some nice bonuses for a bard. Not sure if it will be worth the level of HD, saves, and spells/abilities though.

One thing I haven't seen suggested is the whip. I know its not a very powerful weapon as far as damage, but I think by now we've seen you'll never do much damage. However a +1 Spell-Storing Wounding Whip can have many applications. Releasing a spell you stored the day before (or a spell the cleric or wizard stored for you) coupled with a good chance to hit and a good range means you may get where others cant. The wounding means you are doing damage even when you arent, by draining CON. Additionally, by taking Expertise-Improved Disarm-Improved Trip you can help mix things up among weapon-wielders and creatures your size respectively. Merciful also makes for a good enhancement (+1d6 non-leathal damage), and you may angle towards taking hostages a lot.

If you have the rules from Sword and Fist at your disposal, you can even go whip dagger and try for Lasher later in your career. Again, you are focused on combat, but not necessarily the raw damage aspect of it.

I'm saddened that there still isn't a whip under "Specific Weapons" in the DMG, that space being eaten up to an extent by things like Adamantine Battleaxe and Adamantine Dagger, but it may be fun to give it a try. Additionally with a few changes the whip could make for a fun alt. duelist.

Technik


Edit: Saw someone mention whip after I wrote but before I posted, sorry!

 

[Gellion]

You cant have Bard, and Paladin level. Unless you either become an Ex-Bard, or Ex-Paladin.

 

[JoeBlank]

You cant have Bard, and Paladin level. Unless you either become an Ex-Bard, or Ex-Paladin.

Ex-Bard is really the only way to go. A Bard who becomes lawful can no longer progress as a Bard, but retains all his Bard abilities. A Paladin who becomes non-LG loses all Paladin abilities. I've considered playing and Ex-Bard Paladin, probably Bard 2/Paladin x, but maybe go up to Bard 4.

The only ways to play a Paladin/Bard and continue to level in both:
1. House rule that Bards can be Lawful, and that Paladins can multi-class OR
2. Use the CG Paladin variant (Avenger) from Dragon 310, and allow them to multiclass.
Edit: Or any of the other non-lawful variants in Dragon, didn't mean to limit it to Avenger.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

If you want a Bard with more battle proficiency try a single level of Barbarian (in 3.0 anyway, which are you playing again?). All martial weapon profs, shield prof (get a mithril one), Rage, and faster movement to aid Spring Attack. Ahhhhh HECK! There was a great book series with a character like this, a suave coward who was also a berserker when he couldn't run from combat... ..can't remember it..... Anyway, Rage will give you some combat bennies and if you really like it you can take the Extra Rage feat.

Spring Attack is decent for mid-BAB classes because their second and third attacks don't often hit anyway, so might as well use the movement instead. With some decent tactics you can take even the 4-6 attack combat classes down to your level, since when they move to reach you they only get one attack like you. Inspire Greatness will bring you up to their capability (hit, and hit points) for the single attack you both get.

You can vastly increase your ability by cherry-picking magic items too. Wielding a Holy Avenger longsword for example. With a high UMD you can put together some powerfull combo's and use scrolls to toss magic as well as the party Wizard. If you REALLY wanna break your GM try a Lingering Bardic Song and then going into full arcane caster mode. Of course this is after out-buffing the party Cleric (all arcane AND divine buffs).

Yeah, I play Bards alot. From experience I can tell you that for a well built bard the saying should be "Jack of all trades, and Master of all trades" They can shine in any situation.

 

[Fedifensor]

Well, regarding your template for a single-classed bard, I have a few suggestions on the spell list:

0 - I think you've picked a great selection, here. Lots of utility and flexibility.
1st - Hmm. You've missed the most effective bang for the buck spell...Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Most of the time, it's more effective than Hold Person. I'd switch out either Feather Fall or Charm Person to get it. Probably the latter, since you'll get Suggestion as a bardic music ability at 6th.
2nd - You could use a strong attack spell if you want to be more of a direct combatant instead of support. Consider Glitterdust - an area-of-effect blindness spell that lasts 1 round/level. As a bonus, it's a great anti-invisibility spell. As for Blur...a 20% miss chance isn't something to count on. I think you'd be better off with Mirror Image, personally.
3rd - When you hit 7th, I highly recommend taking Confusion, Slow, or Crushing Despair. These spells can make a dramatic difference in a combat situation, and all affect multiple targets. If you're worried about enemies making their save, Good Hope (the opposite of Crushing Despair) will be a boon to you and your allies. If you're looking for a good defensive spell, Displacement is a huge improvement over Blur.

As for your miscellaneous feat, I'd choose Weapon Finesse since you're trying to focus on melee capability with your feats. If you decide you need more spellcasting power, Spell Focus: Enchantment is a good pick (since most of the Bard attack spells are in the enchantment school).

I know other people are suggesting multiclass combos, but I honestly think you'll be happier with a pure bard. Your spells and bardic abilities both depend on having as many levels of bard as possible, and they're your biggest strength.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Good suggestions, fedifensor. Taking your advice into account, I'll modify his spell list:

0th: Mage Hand, Prestigitation, Summon Instrument, Message, Detect Magic, Read Magic.

1st: Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

2nd: Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust.

The multiple applications from Glitterdust are great for the sorcerer-like bardic magic. And since See Invisibility is now a 3rd-level spell for bards, he'll be able to ready an action against invisible foes and make them visible a few levels early. I hadn't realized that Tasha's Hideous Laughter was so nice, but your advice, plus another thread on the spell, have convinced me.

Regarding feats, I've also taken your advice and gone with Weapon Finesse, so my feat selection looks like this:

1st (human): Dodge
1st : Mobility
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Spring Attack

I had thought of going with Expertise at 3rd (To get Improved Disarm at 9th), but since the 3.5 whip is no longer a ranged weapon (and thus no longer automatically uses your dex,) I'm thinking Finesse is the better choice. That allows me to substitute str for dex with both the whip and the rapier. I may still pick up Expertise/Imp. Disarm at 9th/12th, but that's still a ways off.

Further pointers about playing a bard, or advancing a bard at higher levels, are more than welcome!

 

[dbm]

I am in the process of building a bard for a new campaign, using 3.5 rules. We're only starting at 1st level, but as I am a sad muppet I have already planned out all 20 levels of spell aquisition. Ahem...

At 5th level as a bard you know 4 first level spells and 3 second level spells. You'll want some of those spells for flexibility type magic, but in terms of combat spells you can have Grease (lvl1), Glitterdust(lvl2) and Sound Burst (lvl2). These spells need Reflex, Will and Fortitude saves respectively so you can cover each base with your combat spells.

As for fighting, I've created an Elven bard for the +2 to Dex (amongst over advantages) as I rolled an 18 stat. With the +2 this gives me a 20 which gives me +5 to AC, to hit with bows and at 3rd level I'll pick up Weapon Finesse so it covers my melee attacks too. I picked Weapon Expertise as my 1st level feat (even though I can't actually use it until second level) and I will then be able to up my AC where necessary. My philosophy on Bards in melee is that defence is the highest priority as it will allow you to remain in the fight and whittle away are your foes.

In terms of dishing out damage, I used to play a human bard who dual-wielded short swords. This is the best way to do lots of damage with a bard in melee in my opinon - lots of attacks doing a reasonable amount of damage rather then a couple of attacks doing lots of damage each. In higher levels you can pick up Improved and Greate Two Weapon Fighting to end up with 6 attacks per round on a full attack. And since you are dual wielding short swords, taking Improved Crit in shortsword is well worth it.

Always remember - as a bard you will be behind the curve compared to specialist characters. But you have the flexibility to oppose your enemies at their weakest suit rather than having only one way to crack their nuts.

Dan

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Thanks for the advice Dan!

I've already modified my bard's Known Spells to include Glitterdust--the combo of an attack spell plus a way to counter Invisibility was too good to pass up. Now I need to go back and take a look at Grease.

As for feats, I've used three of my feats up to 6th-level to gain the Spring Attack chain. Several posters here and elsewhere have pointed out the heavy price of this--particularly with a class that isn't a particularly strong melee combatant--but it feels right. With around 20hp at 5th-level, he'd rather be away his foe entirely, rather than right next to him, even with a bonus to his AC from Expertise.

Right now at higher levels, I'm considering:

Weapon Focus (whip): I'm liking the Whip-Dagger (Sword and Fist) a lot as a weapon. It's basically a whip that does 1d6 real damage. Put the flaming property on it, and you've got a very Castlevania-esque type weapon. And my current thinking is that bonus dice (such as from flaming, shocking, icy) are probably the best way for a bard to up his melee damage potential. That, or even better--wounding, as someone here kindly pointed out. My bard's dream weapon? A +5 Holy, Flaming, Wounding Whip-Dagger.

Expertise--Improved Disarm (Perfect for a whip, really. The imagery is classic.)

Improved Trip (same as Improved Disarm)

Bow Feats. My DM has indicated that the PCs may be getting something along the lines of "regional feats" at the start of the game, so I'm hoping that I might get one or two of these as bonus feats, since my PC's homeland is known for archery. Those that I don't pick up, I may need to take at higher levels. At the very least, Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, so that he can fire at foes engaged in melee with his allies. Possibly Greater Precise Shot, too. Though as a bard he doesn't have that many feat slots, so we'll see.

Great Fortitude. My bard's only poor save is Fort, and I doubt he'll have more than a 12 Con at best. That doesn't speak well for resisting poisons and such. This is relatively low on my priority list, since the most dangerous Fort-Save spells don't show up until mid-levels, and my bard is not geared towards lockpicking at all, so I don't have to worry about poisoned needles. But it might be something to consider at mid- to high-levels.

Regarding tactics:

I dual-wielded short swords in a previous campaign as a fighter-rogue, but what really made that technique effective were the bonus sneak attack dice. Without that, my bard would be taking a -2 to attacks, without any added damage per hit. Worse, in order to attack more than once, he needs to take a full attack action, IOW, stay next to the target, a practical death sentence at mid- to high-levels for a character in light armor with d6 hit dice.

So if my bard does go into melee, he'll be using Spring Attack to maintain his distance from his foe (even more distance, with the 15' range of a whip, plus possibly Expeditious Retreat,) rather than get up-close and personal. Otherwise, he'll fire off arrows, use bardic music, or cast spells.

From what people have been saying, I'm beginning to believe that this isn't the most optimized bard, mainly because of the feats: Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack, as opposed to Point-Blank Shot-Precise Shot-Rapid Shot. But the party will have five or six PCs, so I should be all right. If worse comes to worst, I'll start taking levels of fighter.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

I dunno about the revision, but in 3.0 a Trip attempt was a straight Strength contest. Who is gonna have a higher strength, you or a deticated combat character/monster? Likewise Disarm is a straight opposed attack roll. Who's gonna win that one, a Bard or the +1BAB/level classes? Both options, disard and trip, for a Bard it would be easier to just drop your weapon without even bothering to attack

You might be able to pull off a Disarm, if your DEX is so high that it can compensate for a lower BAB. I wouldn't bet on it though.