3.5 high level woes and Paizo's hand in it.

[Storminator]

This is about where I stopped, curled into a ball, and wept.

Ever seen 6 epic PCs caught in a Disjunction?

End of the session right there. 45 minutes of rolling saves, and another hour of recalculating sheets... Surprise round plus half a round of combat - and time to go home.

Brutal.

PS

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ever seen 6 epic PCs caught in a Disjunction?

Hmm... Yeah, that's a tough one.

If only there were some solution that immediately presented itself.

I'd get on that but I'm still working on the druid with the 8 summoned pets.

Another tough nut to crack.

Real stumper.

 

[Storminator]

The old toy had wheels.

You broke the wheels off it.

The new toy does not have wheels.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

The old toy was named "the downhill racer" and had wheels that attached via a Rube Goldberg machine - each wheel to a different part of the body via a different Rube Goldberg machine.

When racing the toy downhill (as implied by the name!), each wheel came off in a unique and unpredictable way at a different part of the race.

The new toy has wheels that attach to axles and rolls perfectly every time.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Cut the BS Wulf.

PS

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The old toy had wheels.

You broke the wheels off it.

The new toy does not have wheels.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

My old toy was a skateboard. It was really cool stuff and I could do some neat tricks, but the wheels didn't make it fit for the kind of terrains I wanted to use.
Now I've got a hoverboard. It's awesome.

I love these analogies and play around with them.

 

[Storminator]

Hmm... Yeah, that's a tough one.

If only there were some solution that immediately presented itself.

I'd get on that but I'm still working on the druid with the 8 summoned pets.

Another tough nut to crack.

Real stumper.

Possibilities...

1) never have any PCs close enough to be disjoined... ever, even when out of combat (which is when we were attacked).

2) always dedicate an epic level caster to counterspelling disjunction

3) never have epic PCs

4) cut a deal with the DM to never use disjunction

5) play 4e?

All kinds of possibilities...

PS

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The new toy has wheels that attach to axles and rolls perfectly every time.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Cut the BS Wulf.

PS

You're bad at analogies.

You specifically named multiple trouble spots caused by options and play styles that simply do not exist in the new game.

I note that nobody's mentioned sweet spot scaling, nobody's mentioned encounter design, nobody's mentioned the rest mechanic, nobody's mentioned monster design, etc.

You know: the things that 4e provides actual solutions for.

Instead of just taking your toys away from you so you don't hurt yourself.

 

[Erik Mona]

My current 3.5 campaign has 8 players and it is becoming unmanageable. The combat rounds are long and people are having trouble staying focused on the game during the wait for their turns. This is at 6th level where only one PC has iterative attacks. Yes, the gulf between optimized and non-optimized players is already evident and wide.

I had a similar experience running Age of Worms in my own campaign, at about the level you are referring to, and coincidentally I also had 8 players. While I agree that 3.5 has some crazy abilities, the biggest problem here is that you are running an adventure with 8 players. The game is not really designed for that many players, and the usual result is that the people who are not addicted to the game start to do something else, like read, doodle, knit, etc.

With 10 players, the problem is exacerbated even more. With 28, it is virtually unplayable.

Speaking as Paizo's publisher, we're mindful of the problems with 3.5 at high levels and willing to hear about people who think our encounter designs make it worse. But 8 players is too many. It was too many for second edition, it's too many for 3.5, and it's too many for 4.0.

It's just too many.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Possibilities...

6) Go outside and play catch with lawn darts.

 

[billd91]

I had a similar experience running Age of Worms in my own campaign, at about the level you are referring to. While I agree that 3.5 has some crazy abilities, the biggest problem here is that you are running an adventure with 8 players. The game is not really designed for that many players, and the usual result is that the people who are not addicted to the game start to do something else, like read, doodle, knit, etc.

With 10 players, the problem is exacerbated even more. With 28, it is virtually unplayable.

I ran 1e in college for 10 people for a term. Couldn't get anything done. I was pretty happy to pare it down to 6 the following term.

 

[Piratecat]

Stop the snark, people. Thinly veiled aggression does not play well, no matter what its wheels look like.