D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Perform, Diplomacy

[Michael Tree]

You people make me laugh... you're not buying a rules system because of the way that perform works? really? the one change (that I'd already made in my game when it started) that will take you 0.05 seconds to house rule is stopping you from buying it? you have odd priorities my friend.

It's not just one change. Like I said, it's the straw that broke the camel's back.

After a certain point, it's just easier to stay with my old books with my old house rules than spend a substantial amount of money for the privledge of having new books with just as many house rules as the old ones. If the new books require as many house rules as the old ones, why spend the money? I'll take what I like from the SRD and dump the rest.

 

[IanB]

Knowing how to finger a particular instrument or control your voice is only a minor part of being a good musician.

As a musician I have to say that this is completely false - it is in fact the largest and most important part of being a good musician. If you are not technically proficient with your instrument (call this ranks of Perform) you can only get by on natural stage presence (call this your charisma bonus.)

I am a very good french horn player.

I sing fairly well mostly due to developing a good ear from playing the horn (call it a synergy bonus.)

I am utterly and completely hopeless at playing the piano despite several years of practice.

The mechanical skills involved in the three have a little overlap but not much.

They should be 3 separate skills, probably with some synergy bonuses for ranks in different skills.

 

[Technik4]

Had 3e been like this from the outset, there would still have been complaints. Granted, they would have been drowned out amid bigger complaints, but many people still wouldn't have liked it. But nice try with attempting to change our arguments from "this rule has bad implications and is no more or less realistic than other rule in the game" to "waaaaa! they made a change! waaaa!"

But honestly you must be kidding. Who would have in fact even noticed? I will admit, when I made a character that used perform I bought the individual performances I wanted. This was because the system presented in the phb was fairly incomprehensible to me, not in that I couldn't comprehend what was intended, but that I couldn't comprehend how it made it past playtesting. When I dmed, I talked with the group and it was unanimously agreed that perform should work like craft, knowledge, and profession.

Ok, lets talk mechanics. Mechanically there is no other skill in the game (3e) in which after spending 1 skill point you get a return of more than...lets say 6. That 5th point going into bluff gives a lot of synergies. Except perform. Even a 10th level bard who places a point in perform gets a 13 point return on his investment. Honestly, if you work the mechanic into the game at ALL, you would see how unbalancing it is. In effect, it cheapens perform as a skill, and performers as a group. Its ludircous.

In 3e it was very easy to buy an item to pump a skill (with a lenient or openminded dm). But honestly, why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? I mean, every rank you put in perform pays for itself and a new skill AND then some. If this mechanic were applied to anything else then all you would hear is "Broken!!!", "Munchkin", etc. The fact that it applied to a skill with little bearing on the game seems to me the only reason it made it to the final draft of the game.

There are many other "mechanical" ways peform can be easily worked into an adventure (which would be kind if said Dm had a bard player). 3e is about options and choices remember? Where is the choice in perform? Choosing a new performance every level? Heh.

Bards never had to make any choices in 3e. Compare any 2 high level bards. I bet they had nearly the same peformance types and nearly the same bonus in that skill. Which means that equal level bards were equally good at singing, dancing, playing the lute, flute, viola, and organ, as well as acting on stage, comedic performances, acting, songwriting, poetry, etc etc.

Your analogy holds up better for dance vs. sing, but at most that argument will seperate perform into three skils: Music, Acting, and Dance

Youre kidding right? I know people that are awesome at the trumpet, but would I give them a chance to play a violin in front of an audience? What about a tuba or a trombone? Acting and dance are 2 of the subskills in 3.5 already but I wouldnt say that either are good comedians or orators. Maybe they can bluff their way a little, being good actors. All the instruments should be in categories imo (after all crafting weapons and armors falls into 2 categories, as does fletching or pottery!).

Perform sing and perfom lute accomplish the same thing, there may be some small situational benefits to various styles but unlike craft, knowledge etc. The end result is the same dang thing. Splitting a skill into subskills where each subskill performs the same exact function is a poor design choice based in styalistic theories and not mechanical ones.

Really? Well what about when you discover a magical lute? I mean, its a magical instrument shouldnt a bard be able to use it? Under 3e: Damn right they should, if for some reason they don't have "Perform (Lute)" this level, by next level they will have it equal with all the other ridiculous performance types theyve acquired. Under 3.5: Well, it looks like someone has a new instrument to learn. By next level they could be fairly competent (if devoting 6+int skill points into it).

I guess there are some mechanical differences. Granted, Im not trying to say that a large portion of the game revolves around this skill, I'm just saying there could be some very good reasons for choosing different performances, which is exactly what the new version forces you to do (without penalizing you for your choice!).

Technik

 

[drnuncheon]

I am a very good french horn player.
I sing fairly well mostly due to developing a good ear from playing the horn (call it a synergy bonus.)
I am utterly and completely hopeless at playing the piano despite several years of practice.
The mechanical skills involved in the three have a little overlap but not much.
They should be 3 separate skills, probably with some synergy bonuses for ranks in different skills.

But why is Perform special in this regard? That's been my point all along. There are plenty of other skills that are equally broad, if not broader, that aren't being split up.

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

But why is Perform special in this regard? That's been my point all along. There are plenty of other skills that are equally broad, if not broader, that aren't being split up.

Like Ride!

No, wait.

Like Bluff! Not only is it not being split up, but it's getting half of Innuendo added to it...

-Hyp.

 

[Yobgod Ababua]

IMO (not that most of you care), splitting up perform in this manner allows players to make their bards more interesting and distinctive in a manner supported by the game system.

Previously, you had to voluntarily nerf yourself to -not- have your bard learn a new instrument every level. By 10th level or so every bard knows how to perform practically anything, so all mid-level bard's perform abilities become identical.

Now the dancing acrobat is actually different from the singing skald or the musician, in that one cannot instantly duplicate the performance of another, although all can use their abilities to produce the same in-game effects (bardic music). This, combined with the relatively coarse perform subskills, will help make any particular bard more unique and interesting. Sure they can't do everything anymore without paying a heavy price for it, but they don't -need- to do everything. Most bard characters I know didn't use more then two types of performance anyway, if that...

I know on the face this change -sounds- like a limitation, but it's really a benefit... an incentive to customize your character.

Possible perform house rule: +2 synergy bonus for having at least 5 ranks in another perform skill when you use both performance types together. (edit: absolutely stackable! *lol*)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Possible perform house rule: +2 synergy bonus for having at least 5 ranks in another perform skill when you use both performance types together.

Stackable?

-Hyp.

 

[coyote6]

I know on the face this change -sounds- like a limitation, but it's really a benefit... an incentive to customize your character.

I'm dazed. I'd be baffled, but that's not a condition in 3.0 (or 3.5 AFAIK).

How is something that turns Character A3.0, with 11 (maxed out ranks) in Perform, and "singing" & "lute" as types (along with 11 variations -- chant, melody, melody, chant, etc.), into Character A3.5, with maxed out ranks in "singing" or "stringed instruments" (but not both), a "benefit"?

That strikes me as being akin to saying getting a several-hundred dollar traffic ticket is a "benefit", because it allows you opportunities -- you can attend traffic school and perhaps become a better driver, or contribute to your municipality's general fund, and help alleviate the budget crisis.

As for "customize your character" -- the 3.5e rules allow me to build a bard that's a wizard with a violin, a devil with a fiddle, a master with a mandolin, and an expert harpist -- but absolutely hopeless with a lute. Now, that character has Stringed Instruments, and is thus automatically just as good with each and every instrument. Gosh, that's one character concept gone, so it actually restricts character concepts, right?

 

[Saeviomagy]

How about using the average of your highest perform skill, and the perform skill you're trying to use? Just means it takes the edge off spending skill points on seperate styles, but still retaining the whole idea that dancing doesn't help you play the violin, beyond general showmanship.

 

[Michael Tree]

Honestly, if you work the mechanic into the game at ALL, you would see how unbalancing it is.

I'm far more concerned with how the mechanics actually work in the game than some purely theoretical conception of balance. I'll admit that the way 3.0 perform worked was... odd, but in play it worked much better than the 3.5 version.

Please tell us why you think it's absolutely imperative that Perform should model real world progression of abilities when virtually nothing else in the D&D game does. I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm honestly curious why you accept a high level fighter being a master of every normal weapon in the world, despite never having used most of them, but can't accept the same with performance skills. Don't just limit your response to fighting though. D&D is filled with skills and other mechanics that have multiple uses which all improve despite possibly only using one aspect of the skill.

Youre kidding right? I know people that are awesome at the trumpet, but would I give them a chance to play a violin in front of an audience? What about a tuba or a trombone? Acting and dance are 2 of the subskills in 3.5 already but I wouldnt say that either are good comedians or orators. Maybe they can bluff their way a little, being good actors. All the instruments should be in categories imo (after all crafting weapons and armors falls into 2 categories, as does fletching or pottery!)..

Well, I have a friend who is uncanny at making up facts and explanation while sounding entirely sincere, and making his BS facts seem entirely plausible despite their ridiculousness. But he can't tell a lie without blushing bright red, nor can he feint while sparring. So clearly Bluff should be seperated into seperate Sounding Believable, Lying to People, and Feinting in Combat skills.

All skills can be infinitely subdivided, as others have pointed out. I'm personally a good singer, but not very good at sight-reading. So, as a result, the D&D game should have seperate Sing and Sight Read skills! But wait, I also play the Oboe and Guitar passably, but can sight read for the Oboe much better than for singing. So clearly all Sight Reading skills should be instrument specific too. [/sarcasm]

I ask again: Why is a high level of abstraction fine for every other part of the game but anathema for performance skills?

I guess there are some mechanical differences. Granted, Im not trying to say that a large portion of the game revolves around this skill, I'm just saying there could be some very good reasons for choosing different performances, which is exactly what the new version forces you to do (without penalizing you for your choice!).

Without penalizing you for your choice? Huh? You mean, aside from having to spend an absolutely ludicrous number of skill points on several skills that all serve the exact same purpose, and a fairly minor purpose to boot!