D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 ShielMaster/Crusader worth for tanking?

[Dandu]

The fact that it is unclear (Ranger, for example, tells you that you can use TWF with low Dex) is what I referred to as bad editing.

I am going to suggest you read the Crusader's Handbook to get an idea of what this class is actually good for.

 

[cjosephs1s]

[MENTION=6685538]Luka[/MENTION] Yes TWF rules apply as normal unless otherwise specified (such as the ranger ability). This is generally true of all abilities

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] I guess I'm missing how the crusader soaks up damage better. I see the steely resolve ability but in my opinion that just delays damage and helps out with Furious Counterstrike (which is kinda cool but I'm not sure I'd take this class for just those two abilities). There's Mettle which is nice. I'd think the extra 2 HP/level of the warblade would make up for Mettle possibly? I've never seen anyone play a crusader so maybe that's why I don't see the benefits over the other two classes.

Also Goad won't work all the time but its an option at least (maybe not an optimal one but still not horrible either).

 

[Luka]

@Luka Yes TWF rules apply as normal unless otherwise specified (such as the ranger ability). This is generally true of all abilities

....What? that's pretty odd, it seems more like Dando said, a edition error, I mean, it just states it gives the Two-Weapon Fighting when using a Shield, so, at least I think, people would more commonly assume it as it gives the TWF regardless of Dex 15 or not.

 

[Dandu]

@Dandu I guess I'm missing how the crusader soaks up damage better. I see the steely resolve ability but in my opinion that just delays damage and helps out with Furious Counterstrike (which is kinda cool but I'm not sure I'd take this class for just those two abilities). There's Mettle which is nice. I'd think the extra 2 HP/level of the warblade would make up for Mettle possibly? I've never seen anyone play a crusader so maybe that's why I don't see the benefits over the other two classes.

This question has come up before.

 

[Luka]

The more I read the more confused I get at what this toon is. So you want to be a 1h weapon + shield up front in your face melee that uses dex based fighting that casts spells from a distance and uses a crossbow???

Wait Dex-based?, never said anything about being dex based, and the crossbow just in case I run out of mana or the setting is not long enough for lvling up the sorcerer class. I pretty much said a Tank that is able to use shields even better than average and that is able to fight back ranged attacks.

How many levels of Sorc are you planning on taking?

depends on where I use it, if the setting's short, I may use more a crossbow than spells.

Where do you put your weapon and shield when your using your crossbow?

Gotta research for it yet (Can't you just sheat it or something here?), but I've seen in a page I don't remember right now to get an emergency ranged weapon in case of enemies kiting.

Normally you would get 7 feats (8 if human) and so far you have used EWP, Improved shield Bash, Somantic Weaponry, Grant Extra Manuever (it feels like I'm missing one or two in here) which leaves you at most 4 feats left. So far your feats haven't done anything to help you out in any way other than Improved shield bash.

I'm planning on playing Human most of the time anyways, and if there's a serious need of feats then just multiclass to Fighter, by the time I'll have most Classes on high level anyways.

You said earlier you are a specialist but this toon is all over the place.

....What?

Also I remember a feat called Goad (Complete Adventurer). Basically its forces a monster to make melee attacks against you if it fails the save.

I'm on a serious lack of books here, so I'm pretty much missing on the right feats, and that one fills the "Taunt" hole pretty nicely, Thank you!

 

[Jackinthegreen]

....What? that's pretty odd, it seems more like Dando said, a edition error, I mean, it just states it gives the Two-Weapon Fighting when using a Shield, so, at least I think, people would more commonly assume it as it gives the TWF regardless of Dex 15 or not.

This is one of the reasons why dandwiki is a poor source for classes and such. A large number of things on there aside from having basic grammar or spelling issues also have poor explanations. Without a proper explanation things go downhill very fast.

Don't assume. You know what happens when you ass/u/me? It makes an ass out of "u" and me.

As far as the meteor hammer goes: Aside from being from dandwiki, it's also a two-handed weapon. The Powerful Arm feature does not grant you the ability to use two-handed weapons in one hand. Read as written it only lets you treat 1-handed weapons like they were two-handed for the purposes of strength's damage bonus and Power Attack, if we clean up the language a bit. There's also the issue of the weapon being exotic, which means burning a feat for it.

Even if you get one-handed reach, there are the issues of enemies beyond the area you threaten. Goad won't work because it has limited range on top of just plain not working on a lot of enemies. It's a mind-affecting ability, and such things are easily negated entirely. It also only specifies that if the creature attacks with a melee weapon, it must target you. It can use ranged attacks, spells, or any other powers against anyone else. More often than not there will be things out of reach, including stuff that's flying or even things on a different plane that are blasting you with spells.

I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but within the rules it's very difficult if not impossible to create a "taunt" type of ability. The best way to get a creature to notice you is to be a threat, which tends to involve either doing the most damage or otherwise screwing with the enemy. As the saying in D&D goes, "being a turtle isn't threatening." The typical tank archetype of heavy armor and shield isn't threatening on its own, and making it threatening requires a lot of work.

If you want a list of feats look at http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/list_feats.html. However, you can't get much from any of those until you've at least read the PHB and DMG.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Welcome! I like what you are trying to build, and I like that you're willing to engage in the lengthy dialogue that it takes to design what you want. These people will help you, it's just going to feel like going thru a meat grinder. The final product, if you stick with us, will be crafting the feel of what you're looking for, but it may actually look much different then what you expect.

One of the things that I know these fine gentlemen are trying to communicate to you is the possible problem with multiclassing.

When you take two or more classes, you lack the full power of either. 20 levels of Crusader makes you be an awesome Crusader. 18 Levels Crusader, 2 Levels Sorcerer makes you still a really good Crusader, but a useless Sorcerer against level 20 monsters.

10 levels Crusader, 10 levels Sorcerer makes you pretty weak against any level 20 monsters, because you've got a variety of level 10 abilities. You end up sucky at everything.

To multiclass well, you need to be very intentional about class/ability/stat/gear/spell combos that synergize well. It can be done, but it requires a thorough understanding of the rules. Also, it's nearly impossible* to be Great at many, many things.

To be a sword and shield melee attacker, ranged attacker, damage absorber, ally protector, ranged spell slinger.... and be not-sucky at all of these things, requires not only a thorough understanding of combat, spell and stat rules, but also knowledge of the wide variety of class and prestige classes out there that can do the things you'd like to do, and will mix together well.

*can be done, but takes alot of knowledge and creativity, which this group of people have access to!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but within the rules it's very difficult if not impossible to create a "taunt" type of ability. The best way to get a creature to notice you is to be a threat, which tends to involve either doing the most damage or otherwise screwing with the enemy. As the saying in D&D goes, "being a turtle isn't threatening." The typical tank archetype of heavy armor and shield isn't threatening on its own, and making it threatening requires a lot of work.

I spent about 3 years of my life playing Final Fantasy XI. It was awesome. my buddy was a Galka, and was all about the Paladin and Dragoon classes. He knew how to aggro a monster like nobody's business, and Tank so save the world.

D&D doesn't work like that. The DM simply says "The monster goes around you and attacks the Wizard", while you stand in your awesomness as you get passed by. If you're in a dungeon hallway, sure, you can stand at the door and shout "You Shall Not Pass!" but in most cases, the environment would work in your favor.

Therefore, the best way to get and keep the monster's attention IS to run to it and hit it, hard, and alot. IF it trys to get away from you, the rules allow you to hit it again, sometimes a few times. this is how tanking is done in D&D.

The alternative is to stand right next to your other party members, maybe become to flanking buddy of the party wizard. This is more risky than rewarding, because the wizard is much safer being far from battle, and you still can't guarantee that standing next to an ally means the ally won't get hit. In reality, in increases the chances of multiple players getting hit with an area effect and so on.

 

[Luka]

D&D doesn't work like that. The DM simply says "The monster goes around you and attacks the Wizard", while you stand in your awesomness as you get passed by. If you're in a dungeon hallway, sure, you can stand at the door and shout "You Shall Not Pass!" but in most cases, the environment would work in your favor.

Therefore, the best way to get and keep the monster's attention IS to run to it and hit it, hard, and alot. IF it trys to get away from you, the rules allow you to hit it again, sometimes a few times. this is how tanking is done in D&D.

I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but within the rules it's very difficult if not impossible to create a "taunt" type of ability. The best way to get a creature to notice you is to be a threat, which tends to involve either doing the most damage or otherwise screwing with the enemy. As the saying in D&D goes, "being a turtle isn't threatening." The typical tank archetype of heavy armor and shield isn't threatening on its own, and making it threatening requires a lot of work.

Again, Crusader Maneuvers, and stances, You've seen the stuff Devoted Spirit gives right?. and Goad would be pretty good to stop people getting near anyways, and that's pretty good actually.

 

[Dandu]

Again, Crusader Maneuvers, and stances, You've seen the stuff Devoted Spirit gives right?

Yes, and builds which use Devoted Spirit to become a tank do not go in the direction of Crusader6/Sorcerer2/Shieldmaster5.

Goad would be pretty good to stop people getting near anyways, and that's pretty good actually.

Let me first confirm that we are talking about the same feat.

As a move action, you may goad an opponent that threatens you, has line of sight to you, can hear you, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting effect.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier). If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against during this turn. (If it kills you, knocks you unconscious, loses sight of you, or otherwise is unable to make melee attacks against you, it may make any remaining melee attacks against other foes, as normal.) A goaded creature may still cast spells, make ranged attacks, move, or perform other actions normally. The use of this feat restricts only melee attacks.

1. Only works on enemies with Int of 3 or higher. Does not work on animals.
2. Offers a will save. Not a guaranteed chance of success.
3. Mind affecting. Golems, undead, and creatures who are warded with magic are immune.
4. Affects melee attacks only. If the enemy wants to cast Wall of Ice, then you're SOL.