D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 ShielMaster/Crusader worth for tanking?

[Luka]

1. Only works on enemies with Int of 3 or higher. Does not work on animals

Maneuvers would work if they get near, depending on what is it.

2. Offers a will save. Not a guaranteed chance of success.

I don't remember them exactly, but some spells with similar effects work like this anyways, I think

3. Mind affecting. Golems, undead, and creatures who are warded with magic are immune.

As Far I know, Golems are pretty hard, and undead are killable with Heals anyways (don't know if they're the old slow walking hard to kill ones or the new sprinting made-of-toilet paper ones).

4. Affects melee attacks only. If the enemy wants to cast Wall of Ice, then you're SOL.

Wouldn't it work against berserking enemies?

 

[Dandu]

I don't remember them exactly, but some spells with similar effects work like this anyways, I think

Yes, but while a spellcaster can start with an 18 in his primary casting stat, boost the save DC with Spell Focus and Heighten spell, and pump his casting stat for all it is worth, you can not. This is very important to keep in mind.

As Far I know, Golems are pretty hard, and undead are killable with Heals anyways (don't know if they're the old slow walking hard to kill ones or the new sprinting made-of-toilet paper ones).

I think we can agree that if you spend a feat that flat out does not work do nothing against a good part of the monster manual (the full list is: construct, ooze, undead, plant, vermin, animal) isn't a good thing.

Wouldn't it work against berserking enemies?

Yes.

The next question is, of course, how often you will meet berserkers.

 

[cjosephs1s]

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] That was the Goad feat. Yeah its not great but its the first thing that popped into my head to force a monster to attack you. I didn't see anyone else posting any ideas for it so I figured I'd throw it out there.

[MENTION=6685538]Luka[/MENTION] You really need to borrow a PHB and DMG from your buddies who you are gaming with and read them. Casters don't have mana.

The only manuever that kinda forces an enemy to attack you is Defensive Rebuke (3rd level boost). It only lasts for 1 round though so while its not horrible, that's not going to get your through combat. And it can still attack others its just provokes attacks of opportunity and without combat reflexes this manuever isn't very good.

[MENTION=6674868]RUMBLETiGER[/MENTION] This is probably the best way to tank and so far its worked out quite well for my character. The last 10 levels we've played I think only one other toon has been attacked once due to getting a monsters attention (had some really bad rolls) using this strategy. Granted I've been resurrected once and nearly died 3 times (negative HP)in that period but that's all part of being a meat shield.


I think I'm just going to build a "Tank" tomorrow and post it in this thread and then you can analyze it. I feel like we've torn up this build so much that it needs a fresh start.

 

[Luka]

The only manuever that kinda forces an enemy to attack you is Defensive Rebuke (3rd level boost). It only lasts for 1 round though so while its not horrible, that's not going to get your through combat. And it can still attack others its just provokes attacks of opportunity and without combat reflexes this manuever isn't very good.

What about Thicket of blades? and the stances like Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block and Shield Counter? And I'm picking Combat Reflexes as first feat anyways.

 

[Dandu]

These are all great maneuvers... which is why you are being strongly encouraged to not multiclass into Sorcerer or take a prestige class that does not advance initiator levels so you can get more great maneuvers. If you go with the original plan, the maneuvers have the function of making a poor character better. Sticking with Crusader will make you excel. There is a difference.

Thicket of Blades is great when you get it at level 6, when enemies have to physically move past you in many cases. (Well, unless Tumble gets past Thicket.) However, at level 12, after you've taken levels of Sorcerer and Shield Master, enemies are teleporting, burrowing, turning ethereal, and so on, which you can't stop that with Thicket of Blades.

You probably will want one of the higher level maneuvers at that point, because you need to be a threat to, say, an Ice Devil who can teleport at will (and fly, and cast Cone of Cold, and Ice Storm, and Wall of Ice, and Persistent Image, and Unholy Aura) so he attacks you over another party member. The 4th level Stone Dragon maneuver Bonesplitting Strike, for instance, would be more useful here than holding a big shield and using it to protect an ally from a melee attack. Which might not happen due to the aforementioned Cone of Cold...

If you really don't believe me, build a level 12 version of your build. We can have @cjosephs1s build a level 12 Crusader going by the advice in the Crusader Handbook, and see how they compare.

 

[xigbar]

If you want something for taunting people, Knight's Challenge does it better. Only 1 level is needed for it. A couple levels of fighter would free up some feats. I wouldn't do much more than that, because, as has been stated, high level maneuvers are well worth it.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Well I started working on a Warblade Build (chose warblade for the bonus feats) last night for about an hour or so. Basically I got about 5 levels planned out and started a feat progression and realized I didn't have enough feats for all the ones I really like to use when building any kind of fighter type. Here's the feats I really like and maybe you guys can shed some light on the ones I can scrap. I'm so used to our Gestalt campaign and having to have the highest possible atttack/damage bonus I can get (typical encounters were anywhere from 3 to 10 levels higher than average party level and I didn't have many problems hitting and doing damage)

Weapon Focus (PHB)
Weapon Specialization (PHB)
Greater weapon Focus (PHB)
Greater weapon Specialization (PHB)
Power Attack (PHB)
Improved Initiative (PHB) (Would like to keep since I don't have Diamond Mind access but can scrap)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (PHB)
Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2)
Combat Reflexes (PHB) (will probably need this feat due to all the AoO with other feats but maybe not)
Mage slayer (COM ARC)(really want to take this one)
Supernatural Insticts (FIEND COD 2)(really like this feat)
Defensive Sweep (PHB2)(Can't take it till level 15 but I love this feat and will want to take it at level 15)

Also I'm trying to be the Archtype and have a shield so if you know any 1 handed weapons with reach (I think there is like a dagger whip somewhere but not sure). Otherwise I can use the spiked chain as that seems pretty cool. I can get reach through magic items but it will take a few levels to amass some gold

Also what format should I put the attachment in? I can just fill out a Word character sheet that shows the final product. I can also attach an Excel spreadsheet that shows the progression. I can copy the spreadsheet to a word document. Any advice as I've never posted a toon on here before?

I can build this Crusader guy a couple of ways. I can make him a basically a defensive machine that is hard to hit, has abilities that help out his allies a lot and does ok damage or I can build him to have good defense and put out some serious damage.

And what fool came up with these stance progressions for these classes? They make no sense and frankly suck.

I'll go ahead and start reading this Crusader Manual thing so I learn more about them (I played a Warblade in the last campaign so I'm at least somewhat famaliar with manuevers, stances, and concepts but by no means the expert so I'm not expecting my build to be near as good as my straight fighter builds)

For convience sake I'm going to give him average scores of 14 with no score lower than 10 and only one 18. He will be human (I want the extra feat and skill point). I'm going to use the Wealth by character level in the DMG and just give him loot at level 12 to make it easier on me. Any other "house rules" I should know about? I'm only using WotC sources and I think I have all the books so if you have any ideas please feel free to let me know and let me know which book they are in

 

[cjosephs1s]

I am going to suggest you read the Crusader's Handbook to get an idea of what this class is actually good for.

This thing is pure solid platinum!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Please understand, all of us are encouraging you to go Crusader. The maneuvers are awesome. The class can do incredible things in combat.

It can do serious damage.

It can, with clever positioning, at earlier levels, deal damage and do some battlefield control against enemies that try to move within the area the Crusader can threaten.

It simply.. can't stand in the gap between your allies and enemies and take all the brunt of the beating by drawing enemies to itself.

 

[Dandu]

Kusari-gama. One handed exotic weapon with reach. DMG.