D&D 3.x [3.5] Stacking the same Meta-magic feat

[mo]

What do people think the pros and cons are of the disallowing of multiple applications of the same metamagic feat. A twice extended summon monster spell doesn't seem much of a problem, but then a twice empowered lightening bolt might be too much? Have people generally followed this change or let the 3e orginals stand?

[edited to remove stupidity]

 

[Pyrex]

In my opinion, multiple applications of metamagic on spells isn't broken. In a few of cases it's good. In one or two it's really good, but still not broken.

Even in 3.0 the only time multiple metamagics was really broken was when an 8th level Incantrix was casting stat buff spells that had been Empowered 6 times.

 

[Li Shenron]

Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell and Empower Spell are definitely FINE if allowed to stack as in 3.0.

Widen Spell is IMHO instead quite powerful to be allowed to stack, since the increase becomes quadratic and not linear: first time you double the radius = the area becomes 4 times (+3 times); second time you triple the radius = the area becomes 9 times (+8 times); third time (if possible) you quadruple the radius = the area becomes 16 times (+15 times).

Clearly, it's +3 level every time so in non-epic games you would very rarely see Widen Spell applied more than twice, in which case you may still consider it balanced: a 9th level (double-widen) Fireball covers an area of radius 60ft and deals 10d6 to everyone; the 9th level Meteor Swarm can cover four areas of radius 40ft and deal 8d6 (with no save) to one creature per meteor, and 6d6 to the others in the area.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Widen Spell is IMHO instead quite powerful to be allowed to stack...

Widen spell increases the radius by 50% of the base radius with each application and not 100%. I made that mistake myself last week when looking at the 3.5 version of widen spell and seeing a 100% there without noticing that it now modifies total area and not radius. The effect on the rate of increase of the spell area that you're describing is still there but it takes a good deal longer to ramp up and so isn't really a balance issue considering the cost of applying it to spells.

A double widened fireball would have a 40 ft radius. It would take four applications to get a fireball with a 60 ft radius. By that point you're looking at a 15th level spell. If you have 15th level spell slots your enemies are probably not going to be too worried about a 10d6 fireball with a pretty ordinary save DC even if it does have a 60 ft radius.

Even in 3.0 the only time multiple metamagics was really broken was when an 8th level Incantrix was casting stat buff spells that had been Empowered 6 times.

I think Improved Metamagic is not difficult to fix with a minor house rule if your group allows multiple applications of metamagics.

Incantatrix aside I don't think multiple applications of metamagic feats are a problem. I allow multiple applications of metamagics in my game. We haven't hit any balance issues and the players enjoy it so I can't find any reason to axe it. If there are balance issues we can deal with them as we come across them.

 

[Pyrex]

Widen spell increases the radius by 50% of the base radius with each application and not 100%.

WIDEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.

Fireball
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread

Widening a fireball once gets you a 40' radius. Widening it twice gets you 80' radius. Good, but still not broken as a 9th level spell.

Improved Metamagic has already been erratad to apply its reduction
to the spell, not each feat applied to the spell so it's no longer (as) broken
anyway.

 

[apsuman]

Widening a fireball once gets you a 40' radius. Widening it twice gets you 80' radius. Good, but still not broken as a 9th level spell.

Improved Metamagic has already been erratad to apply its reduction
to the spell, not each feat applied to the spell so it's no longer (as) broken
anyway.

Given the multiple metamagics do not "see" each other, i.e. the maximize does not see the empower, so the effects are all applied separately.

All that to say, widen a fireball one and it would go from a 20 ft radius to a 40 ft radius. Widen it twice (if possible) and it would go from 20 ft, to a 60 ft radius.


g!

Edit: typo

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I have never seen a problem with stacking the same metamagic feat. And the few ones people claimed to have problems with have now been changed so they can't effectively be modified, stat buffs can't be empowered since they aren't variable, and the duraiton is so short who cares how amny times people extend it for example. Though personally I had no porblem with a high powered stat buff as an 8th level spell.

As for widen its perhaps the weakest metamagic feat in existence, so if people want to make themselves weak and take it and then use a even weaker tactic by using it twice well then don't blame me when your fellow party memebers kill you for being a lame spellcaster. And also considering how doubling works in D&D its x2(+100%)at 1 widen and x3(+200%)at a double widen so yippee you can have a 9th level fireball with a 60' radius.

 

[Tywyll]

Where did I miss it?

Ok, I admit, I must have missed something somewhere. Back in my 3.0 days, I never came away with the idea that Metamagic feats could be applied twice. I know everybody and their cousin did it, but I couldn't find any specific reference to allowing the same metamagic feat twice. Now in 3.5, its been specifically edited out, which I don't have a real problem with because no one ever used it that way before.

Could someone point me to where this stacking limit could be exceeded?

 

[Spatula]

Allowing multiple Empowerings removes any real reason to learn the Maximize Spell feat.

 

[mo]

Allowing multiple Empowerings removes any real reason to learn the Maximize Spell feat.

I wasn't sure about this, but then:

Maxmised Lightening Bolt (7th Level spell) - 60 points of damage
Doubly Empowered Lightening Bolt (7th Level) - 20 - 120 points of damage, average 70

On the otherhand, your can be sure of the 60 points with a maxmised spell, whereas there is still an element of risk with the doubly empowered spell.

mo

[edit: whoops - maximised lightening bolt = 6th level]