D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) The Paladin Sucks? Also, how to fix it?

[Alexander123]

How were they evil? Weren't they just rationally pursuing their own self interests?

They were evil because they were not acting according to the principles of morality, namely to uphold and defend the principle of individual rights.

Now I don't agree with Ayn Rand's arguments about this. She would say that it is not in a person's rational self-interest to be evil which I don't think is always the case, there are times when it is in a person's rational self-interest to be evil. It was in the rational self-interest of Lenin for example to become the dictator of Russia.

I would simply say that to act in one's rational self-interest and to uphold and defend individual rights are not mutually exclusive, a person can do both.

Ayn Rand's fight is against the creed and the ideal of self-sacrifice which raises Mother Theresa as an ideal, she raises Marilyn Monroe as the ideal of how one should live one's life.

She is of course speaking in the context of upholding and defending individual rights not outside of that context.

Edit: So [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], what do you think?

 

[Bob the Destroyer]

Well, the problem with using Pathfinder as a solution for this situation comes here (for my campaigns at least): If I ask for a Pathfinder Paladin, the rest of the group will want Pathfinder versions of their own classes as well, which leads to the Paladin being on square one when it comes to the actual upgrade.

I actually think that even though the other classes would get a boost from it, it might be a good idea to switch to the PF classes because the differences in power level between the Pathfinder Paladin and the other PF classes are (IMO) significantly smaller than the differences between the 3.5 Paladin and the other 3.5 classes.

That being said, my preferred way to fix the 3.5 Paladin is to give them a few bonus feats to make them more versatile and more on par with the fighter.

 

[Dandu]

How do you fix the fighter?

 

[Rhun]

Use the Prestige Paladin class in place of the normal paladin. I've done this for all paladins in my homebrew campaign world, and it definitely gives them a bump in power level.

 

[kitcik]

Here you are mistaken.

It is more realistic not to have alignment restrictions for playing paladins.

History shows this to be true, there have been countless groups who fought under the banner of righteousness and goodness and yet were evil.

Such as the Inquisition or in the case of clerics, corrupt priests.

So an alignment restriction is unrealistic.

He is "mistaken" about how his fantasy world should be because you don't think the idea is "realistic"? Are you serious? Have you banned all magic from your campaign or do you think it is "realistic"?

 

[Celebrim]

How do you fix the fighter?

In a nutshell, you make feats and skills more important to the game then give the fighter a small bump in both. For example, in my game movement rate and carrying capacity are influenced by skills - and the fighter has both relevant skills as class skills. Also, in my game the fighter is the only class with both the Tactics and Leadership skills as class skills - these skills are used to provide buffs and mitigate the effects of some sorts of debuffs. This means that the fighter actually has a pretty decent class skill list, and with 4 skill points per level has the means to use them.

Of course, there are other ways to do it, but to me they involve losing the core idea of the 'mundane' fighter who is surviving simply by extraordinary application of ordinary abilities. The other ways to go about it always manage to feel to me like dressing a spellcaster in sword swinger garb.

 

[Icyshadowlord]

Use the Prestige Paladin class in place of the normal paladin. I've done this for all paladins in my homebrew campaign world, and it definitely gives them a bump in power level.

Thanks for the tip, but...the link is broken or something. It keeps redirecting me into making a reply on this page.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Prestigious Character Classes :: d20srd.org

Not as bad, seeing as they get 1st-6th level Cleric spells (albeit rather late on) with the typical build, which would presumably be Fighter 1 / Cleric 4 / Prestige Paladin 15. And 19/20 BAB, so a loss one one point there. I'd say it works out better, for sure. Oh, and they get better Turn Undead, I guess.

 

[Rhun]

Thanks for the tip, but...the link is broken or something. It keeps redirecting me into making a reply on this page.

I fixed my link, although I do see that Aus_Snow also posted it above.

They do get Turn Undead. Overall, it delays becoming a Paladin for a few levels, but in the end you definitely get a nice bump in the power level of the class.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

How do you fix the fighter?

Not easy. I'm openly a fan of Trailblazer's class changes. Here are Trailblazer's modest changes . . .

• Two good saves.
• Increase skill points to 4+Int.
• All of fighter's AoO's have smite-like bonuses, increasing with fighter level
• Let fighters increase features by one step (with additional options being added every few levels) of a designated weapon when used by the character like: base damage, threat range, crit multiplier. Let these stack with other ways like Improved Critical or keen.
Additional weapon option choices could included things like tripping with a nonstandard weapon, disarming with a nonstandard weapon, two-handed weapons gaining reach, or reach weapons attacking adjacent foes, count as light weapon for Weapon Finesse, give weapon a range increment for throwing . . .

Not great stuff in comparison, maybe not enough to bring into parity with wizard or sorcerer. But with action points in use, fighters are made a bit better.