[3.75] Fixing things: turning

[Ruslanchik]

The main problem with turning at all, using any mechanic in any edition, is causing the undead to flee. Unless the undead is much stronger, most Good adventurers will want to destroy the undead, not make it run away and uncatchable. It basically makes turning detrimental to the heroes' goals. So, any turning mechanic that simulates that will always have a certain amount of suckage. Yeah, it's called "turn"-ing, but the name is irrelevant.

Why not just have them stunned instead? The length of the stun could depend on HD. You could even take the direct damage deal out and just give low HD undead long stun times, basically allowing the party to coup d'grace them. Stronger undead would just be stunned for a round or two, giving the party a chance to turn the tide or gain the upper hand.

 

[brehobit]

After thinking about this, I realized the proper way to do Turn Undead is to give each undead a Turn DC. Currently, it's based on HD, but many undead have a Turn Resistance which makes it harder to turn them.

Simply giving each type of undead a separate Turn DC is more elegant, and eliminates the problems with basing it on HD, Will saves, or anything else not explicitly designed to reflect how hard to turn an undead should be.


Since clerics are a little skill starved, it should probably just be knowledge (religion), but modified by Cha instead of Int. In the interests of simplicity I'd shy away from an opposed roll, using a static Turn DC as mentioned above.

As mentioned on one of the other turn undead threads, you'd probably want to model the thing off bardic music.

Yeah,
I agree with a lot of this, but the problem I see is that a 1d20 doesn't provide the kind of curve I want. Say a ghoul has a DC of 15. That means a level 1 cleric with a 14 CHR has has to roll a 9 or better, so 60% chance. That same cleric at level 5 has an 80% chance.

Against a vampire, of say DC 22, the same cleric has a 25% chance, and at level 5 a 50% chance.

I personally think a 1st level cleric should have maybe a 10% chance against a vamp, but a 5th level cleric maybe 50%. But the d20 system just doesn't scale that way. I _think_ that's why we have the screwy system we have right now...

Mark

 

[Pickaxe]

What about making it an opposed roll, modified by Charisma and HD? The skeletons and zombies will be affected relatively easily, but the undead with personality will be tougher. And each undead would have a chance to succeed (which I guess means more rolling). If the cleric beats the opposed roll by a certain amount, then destruction.

Just a half-baked thought.

Oh, and I don't have a problem with the notion that skeletons can "run scared." After all, if they can be made agressive enough to fight, why can't they be made scared enough to run?

--Axe

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Why not just have them stunned instead? The length of the stun could depend on HD. You could even take the direct damage deal out and just give low HD undead long stun times, basically allowing the party to coup d'grace them. Stronger undead would just be stunned for a round or two, giving the party a chance to turn the tide or gain the upper hand.

You can't coup de grace something that is immune to critical hits.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You can't coup de grace something that is immune to critical hits.

And undead are immune to stunning and you can't CDG someone/thing who is stunned (unless they're also otherwise helpless).

 

[Dracandross]

And undead are immune to stunning and you can't CDG someone/thing who is stunned (unless they're also otherwise helpless).

Hey, say turning leaves them vulnerable to staking (vamp) / pulverizing (skeleton) etc. Gamemechanic way that would be special attack (full round) allowed by successful turn. Should not kill outright though, would be good just to score X times damage depending on how badly turned mob is. That way turning wouldnt suffer from fleeing, could cause serious damage. Which would lead that it could be called as CDG and stun. Could be too lethal though.

Anyway that DCs for instant destroy or keep at bay were also nice ideas. Specially with that damage dealt if mob chooses to press on anyway. Hopefully they get into something

EDIT: Well as i gave it a second thought. It could work as cha+turning level against turn/destroy check. Clerics could get +1 turning every now and then as class feature / sun domain etc and paladins would get -3 at first. Kinda like trap sense for example. Or just cha+lvl*2 or Cha*round up(lvl/4)+lvl. Easy to balance with turn check DC's anyway whatever is picked.


Increasing more that just level would make curve a bit better where low level cleric could not turn so well and it will raise more than 5% per level when going upwards (as pointed out skeleton on lvl 1 if its 40% its not balanced if lvl 9 would get just 80% chance). Hd directly from turn power+cha modified with some good number (2?)


-Dracandross

 

[Jesus_marley]

After thinking about this, I realized the proper way to do Turn Undead is to give each undead a Turn DC. Currently, it's based on HD, but many undead have a Turn Resistance which makes it harder to turn them.

Simply giving each type of undead a separate Turn DC is more elegant, and eliminates the problems with basing it on HD, Will saves, or anything else not explicitly designed to reflect how hard to turn an undead should be.

I like this idea.

Also, I am not sure if this has already been done, but I would like to see a mechanic that would allow a cleric to "burn" extra turning attempts in order to gain a bonus when turning. I see in my mind a cleric in a desperate situation channeling the power of their deity in one massive burst. perhaps to offset the power of this, maybe apply a temporary penalty to CON and/or STR. Basically the channelling of that much power puts a terrible strain on the body. For every extra turning attempt burned, add a -2 penalty. if they have 4 turn attempts and use all 4 of them, the suffer a -6 penalty to str and/or Con until they are able to rest for at least 8 hours.

 

[Veril]

Turning should use the unified Game Mechanics of Attack vs AC:

Turn Attack Roll: 1D20 + Turning Level + Cha Modifier.
Your Turning level = Cleric level + (pally lvl -3)
Undead should have a Turn Resistance of 10 + HD + Undead Type Modifier
If you don't hit their Turn AC they take no effect from your turn attempt.
If you do hit their Turn AC then Damage is 1D6 per Turning Level.

The above is for turning a single undead. When turning a group of undead, it should be just the same, except it affects a cone (length 5' per turn level) and the total damage is halved (1D6 per 2 levels)


Turns per day should be (level/2) + Cha Modifier

Extra Turning would be +3 or +4, some classes would add or subtract to the attack roll, and or to the damage roll.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'd like to see turning modelled after Cleric Domains. You only get turning uses if you take the Turning Domain. This generates the 3+Cha attempts for day used by Turning feats, the unused Turning to effect items/gates/portals rule, and maybe a Reserve Feat-like effect (Xd6 area damage to undead based on the highest Turning Spell you have available).

Then roll the various desired Turning effects into spells of the appropriate level. Which could be taken by any cleric. Stun Undead, Destroy Undead, Daze Undead, Nuke undead, Cause Turning on Undead, etc.

The reverse would be a Rebuke UNdead domain with the Command Undead, etc. spells.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I’d like a mechanic where the undead ‘choses’ to stay and take damage or flee.

Cleric rolls 1d6 per level. Undead in 30’ with HP under that amount crumble. Those with more chose to flee or suffer that as damage.

Like this base idea:

Turning/Rebuking Undead

If a cleric makes his turning or rebuke attempt, he rolls 1d6/cleric level, affecting all undead within 30' (this rolled number is refered to as "Turning Damage"

Undead, which HP are equal or less than the rolled Turning Damage, are either destroyed(if you turn them) or controlled (if you rebuke them).

If an undead has more HP than Turning damage, he can either take the damage or flee (if turning), or take the damage or be shaken [or rather the effects of being shaken] (if rebuking). Mindless undead always take the damage, since they cannot choose. The chosen effect affects the undead for 1 round/cleric level.

If an undead has Turn Resistance, multiply it with 1/2 HD to gain his new Turn resistance - this amount is subtracted from the Turning damage against the target.