3 book models vs. 1 book models.

[Nifft]

I find it amusing that lots of people are suggesting that stuff be cut out from the core books and included in supplements... which by itself defeats the idea of a 1-book system.

Most races could come in setting books anyway. I'd have no problem with three races (Human + one medium, one small) in the Core book, and all others in setting books.

Likewise for setting-specific critters.

Then the typical books for a game become: Core book + Setting book + Magic system

(Planar descriptions are wasted for many games anyway. Why require that in the core book if you're going to play Eberron?)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Imaro]

d20 Modern fits in one book? Well, it doesn't have setting material (after all, it's set on modern Earth). It's only 6 10-level base classes, as opposed to 12 20-level core classes. Magic and Psionics have only 5 levels, with a handful (10 or less) powers for each, as opposed to D&D's 200+ spells. Monsters get nearly no artwork, and several creatures are missing (even real world ones that might be needed for a game). Instead of 7 core races, you get 1. No planar descriptions, no rules for terrain features and dungeon building, etc...

Actually it also has...

Six advanced classes that go up another ten levels, plus the extra 6 classes in the campaign settings( of which there are 3 taking up 42pgs.)

75 Arcane spells...63 divine spells and 58 psionic powers.

There are rules for playing Moreau characters(half human/half animal characters) with 6 different kinds

As far as the monsters...there are monsters like "robots", "toothfairy", "terrestrial effluvium", etc. that would be replaced with D&D monsters. Artwork for every monster in the core book I'm kinda, meh on.

There is a section on designing adventures.
No, no terrain or planar info...but if you remove all the firearm, explosives, vehicle, 3settings, etc. rules and info that D&D doesn't need, then there's more than enough room for this stuff.

 

[drothgery]

(redundant)

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'll put it like this, don't have alot of experience with True20...but eliminating the(was it 5?) settings, would have given enough room for that and more. As an example Blue Rose, actually has more "archaic weapons" than True20...and it also contains alot of setting info.

Yes and if they ever do, perhaps they can add the True 20 Companion and Monster books?

Two more books for different levels of play. If all you want to do is play the "heroic" offspring of gods, it's got all the rules. Only if you want to play a demigod or god are the others necessary(and I'm guessing it's mostly powers on this level)...Sort of like the Epic handbook & Psionics book.

I'll give you that.

Actually you only need one of those books, and that's only if you want to play as a supernatural in it's society. If you want to play a mortal hunter, investigator, etc. you don't. The fact remains that all the basic storyteller rules are contained in one book.

So there's no weapons book or other books that are of vast utility? I mean, back in the day you could've just played with the PHB as they put a few monsters at the back of it or hey, if you're not using monsters or magic, you can still just use the PHB.

Haven't played hero...but BESM 3e has templates for fast NPC or PC construction and examples.

Fast is not the same thing as done. I too own BESM 3e and it's not that complete, especially in terms of easily making the book fit your own campaign. For all it's flaws (and here's here Psion always manages to score points when I look at D&D as point based), D&D has a standard power level assumption that makes using things that are balanced fairly easy for many levels unlike BESM or Hero where things have to be heavily customized once you set your power level.

That's just not true...maybe no one core book has the same amount of superfluous information as the 3 core books of D&D would be a more precise statement.

Ah, but what you consider superfluous, others would not so yeah, it IS true. Almost all game systems have a seperate equipment book and a seperate monster book. Just because they're not labeled core, don't get fooled.

I mean tons of "sample"magic items(you could really go with a basic selection, maybe three or four, that illustrates the different groups and that's it.)...spells that could easily be pared down.

Codifying the section on skills,ability generation, etc. instead of a section in each book that repeats alot of info,(like the examples for different DC's)...there's actually alot of repetition or things that could be combined and condensed between the PHB & DMG, especially when it comes to skills, combat, etc.

Get rid of Prestige classes and give them their own "optional" book that actually gives real concrete info on designing them, instead of an endless list.

Yeah, but if you read several other threads, you'll come across the dread 'opinion varies' bit as many people want saythe PrCs in the PHB or want more rules on designing game mecahnics at the get go. Deciding what is 'fluff' or 'waste' is basicaly an every man is an island arguement.

Yeah...if you want to buy them, but there are plenty of one book systems where that really is all you need for a satisfactory game. I mean D&D is a 3 book system that's designed to sell you more splat books and has no setting. So maybe I'm missing your point here.

If you're missing my point, you're either doing so intentially or disagree with me on a fundamental level.

 

[Imaro]

Yes and if they ever do, perhaps they can add the True 20 Companion and Monster books?

Well Blue Rose has a monster section. What exactly is the purpose of bringing up the companion? Is D&D only a complete game with PHB II & DMG II? Why is Blue Rose incomplete without the companion?

So there's no weapons book or other books that are of vast utility? I mean, back in the day you could've just played with the PHB as they put a few monsters at the back of it or hey, if you're not using monsters or magic, you can still just use the PHB.

OK, once again...what? There's feats, and new spells and etc. in the completes that would be of vast utility, the question is do I need them all to have a complete playable game? There are weapons in the nWoD core...but there's a book called armory that goes into more depth and gives more options(kinda like the arms and equipment guide for 3.5)...how does this make the game unplayable without it? Is D&D unplayable without the arms and equipment guide?

And there were no rules for advancement in the PHB...see that's something that's necessary.

Fast is not the same thing as done. I too own BESM 3e and it's not that complete, especially in terms of easily making the book fit your own campaign. For all it's flaws (and here's here Psion always manages to score points when I look at D&D as point based), D&D has a standard power level assumption that makes using things that are balanced fairly easy for many levels unlike BESM or Hero where things have to be heavily customized once you set your power level.

It's not complete, because it's a point-buy...generic system and you have to set the power level? Yet it gives all the tools you need to do this? This makes no sense, you're arguing it's not complete because it's a different type of game than D&D. This has nothing to do with having a one book core for D&D. It seems like some type of commentary on universal point-buy systems...maybe?

And D&D is not a point-buy system, it's a hybrid class-based and point-based...It also isn't universal. In other words their apples and oranges.

Ah, but what you consider superfluous, others would not so yeah, it IS true. Almost all game systems have a seperate equipment book and a seperate monster book. Just because they're not labeled core, don't get fooled.

Like...Angel rpg....No
Like...Witchcraft...No
Like...Scion...No
Like...Unknown Armies...No
Like...BESM...No
Like...Stormbringer 5th ed....No
Like...Call of Cthulhu...No
Like...Kult...No
Like...Seventh Seal...No
Like...Qin:The Warring States...No
Do I really need to keep going?

I think it's better to say some books have seperate equipment books and seperate monster books.

Yeah, but if you read several other threads, you'll come across the dread 'opinion varies' bit as many people want saythe PrCs in the PHB or want more rules on designing game mecahnics at the get go. Deciding what is 'fluff' or 'waste' is basicaly an every man is an island arguement.

If something is optional it doesn't have to, (maybe even shouldn't be), in the core rulebook.

If you're missing my point, you're either doing so intentially or disagree with me on a fundamental level.

No your point seems to be...one book games can't be complete because they make supplements for them and they try to sell them to you...yet D&D does the same thing and has 3 books for a core...so no I don't get your point.

 

[The Human Target]

I find it amusing that lots of people are suggesting that stuff be cut out from the core books and included in supplements... which by itself defeats the idea of a 1-book system.
.

Actually, they're talking about making DnD a game with one CORE book, and expansions.

One CORE book implies a game that can be played with only one book, or more, at your personal discretion.

I myself would rather have one core book, with splat book expansions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Like...Angel rpg....No
Like...Witchcraft...No
Like...Scion...No
Like...Unknown Armies...No
Like...BESM...No
Like...Stormbringer 5th ed....No
Like...Call of Cthulhu...No
Like...Kult...No
Like...Seventh Seal...No
Like...Qin:The Warring States...No
Do I really need to keep going?

I'll add HERO, Spycraft, Mutants & Masterminds, Godlike and the many others that, while they may have supplemental books, only require the one core book to run any game you'd care to.

I think it's better to say some books have seperate equipment books and seperate monster books.

QFT.

 

[Ranger REG]

Is this an advantage? I mean it's just another hampering mechanic that seperates players from DM's. I really think that D&D would benefit from more people willing to play & run...but to DM you're looking at another $60.

For the players in the group, yeah. The DM, not so much.

Not necessarily, it's dependant on how the informattion is presented. d20 Modern packs alot of info(player and DM) into one book...and even has a system for both magic and psionics.

d20 Modern is not the level of fantasy game as D&D. The magic and psionic are just FX plugins, that most modern-genre roleplayers can do without.

IMHO, this either happens or doesn't, nothing stops a player from perusing the DM guide anytime he/she wants to. So you either have players that accept your rulings, have players that actually can help you with your rulings, or have players that will argue about it.

Only I don't let my players bring their own copy of the DMG to the table. Only the DM. And it's for the DM's eyes only.

Because "tradition" doesn't always equate to "better"...Otherwise we'd still be ruled by kings who happened to be born in the right place at the right time.

Who says about "better"? Tradition is a comfort.

 

[Set]

We could also loose the Greyhawk specific stuff...I mean it's not like WotC is really supporting it anyway.

Yeah, cutting Mordenkainen out of the spell names and calling them just 'Sword' and 'Hound' and 'Disjunction' should save a couple hundred pages easy!

Change every instance of Pelor to 'Sun God' and Ehlonna to 'Forest Goddess.' Oh wait, that actually *adds* words... Huh, it's a stumper.

 

[Stalker0]

I consider the 3 book model better in a lot of ways.

1) Ability to hand out info. Sometimes in my games a player needs to a see a spell, and another needs to see a magic item. Having different books makes that easier.

2) Portability. I find 3 books easier than 1 because I don't always need all 3 books. If I'm playing a fighter and not dming, I don't need my dmg or monster manual. I can leave those at home and just take my phb....instead of having to load around the whole book.

3) Wear and tear. This is a big one for me. Rulebooks get a lot of love...aka abuse. Bigger books tend to wear out quicker. Its just the stain from all of those pages and so forth. Dividing the books into 3 reduces wear. Further, if 1 of the 3 wear out, it can be replaced piecemeal. In a 1 book system, the whole book has to be replaced.

This is also an issue if the book is:

1) Damaged or destroyed
2) Drink is spilled on it.
3) Teh book is stolen.

Etc Etc.

So I'll keep my 3 books thank you very much.