3 Questions- Temp HPs, 2H Wpns, Barbarian Rage

[Milambus]

Do you suggest that if a human fighter chooses to wield a dagger in two hands, it should count as a two-handed weapon for power attack?

This is a false argument since the dagger can not be used two-handedly. Mechanically, because it lacks the "versatile" keyword. Narratively, because the handle is too short for two-hands.

 

[Starbuck_II]

This is a false argument since the dagger can not be used two-handedly. Mechanically, because it lacks the "versatile" keyword. Narratively, because the handle is too short for two-hands.

I disagree. You don't need to be versatile to be used two handed.


Versatile just merans of used two handed you get a +1 damage.

You can use a Scimitar 2 handed, but you won't get the +1 damage because it lacks versatile keyword.
And yes, you can power attack with a Scimitar two handed.

So, yes, you could power attack with a dagger two handed. By the rules.
Power Attack: Has no weapon limitations.
Page 215 is obscure... It doesn't come out and say you can't weild a dagger two handed. It just says versatile ones may be used two handed to deal extra damage.
Page 215: does imply in versatile that only versatile and 2 handed weapons can be used 2 handed. But nothing comes out and says it.

I'll email the Sage with this message and see what he says.

I was discussing 4th edition with others on a forum. It involved Power attack and 2 handed wielding a weapon for the extra damage from power attack.
I noticed:
a. Power Attack: Has no weapon limitations.
b. In the weapons section of the PHB, it is obscure... It doesn't come out and say you can't weild a dagger two handed. It just says versatile ones may be used two handed to deal extra damage.
And I thought the versatile keyword just meant that it did an extra 1 damage while weilding it 2 handed.

So the question came up, "Do you suggest that if a human fighter chooses to wield a dagger in two hands, it should count as a two-handed weapon for power attack?"
Must a weapon be versatile to be used two handed?
Can I use a dagger or a club 2 handed for extra Power Attack benefit?
Yes, it might be strange for a Fighter to use a dagger, but hypothetically it would be good to know if this came up in a game.
Thanks, and have a good day.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Power Attack says "with a two-handed weapon". That seems to be a pretty specific reference to the type of weapon it is looking for. You can power attack with any melee attack, but it only gets +3/tier if it's a two handed weapon.

217- Versatile takes about how it can be used one handed or two handed.

220- The weapon size improvements are different depending on whether an item is 1-H or 2-H. So, is a large longsword [wielded by a Bugbear] 1d10 when wielded 1-H and 2d4 (+1) when wielded with both hands?

A 1-handed weapon, versatile or not, is a 1-handed weapon. An answer was posted as to how weapon talent worked with versatile items, and the weapon is considered to be of the type it is listed in the table [i.e. versatile items are 1-handed weapons].

Heck, double weapons have to be wielded 2-handed [it even prevents small creatures from using them] but they are considered off hand weapons each held in one hand.

 

[Milambus]

I disagree. You don't need to be versatile to be used two handed.


Versatile just merans of used two handed you get a +1 damage.

You can use a Scimitar 2 handed, but you won't get the +1 damage because it lacks versatile keyword.
And yes, you can power attack with a Scimitar two handed.

4e is a game system that defines what you can do, not what you can not do. So, show me the rule that states you can do this.

Some quotes from PHB pg 215:

A one-handed weapon is light enough or balanced enough to be used in one hand.

Not too much meat there, but it gives us a starting definition. In the next paragraph:

Some one-handed weapons are light enough for you to use in your off hand while holding another one-handed weapon in your other hand.

These are weapons with the Off-Hand property.

Other one-handed weapons are large enough that you cab keep a good grip on them with two hands and deal extra damage by using them as two-handed weapons.

And these are weapons with the Versatile property.

No where in there does it say that all one-handed weapons can be wielded with two-hands.

The pommel of a weapon is only so large. For one-handed weapons its just large enough for one hand. For Versatile weapons it a bit larger, allowing the second hand to fit. For a two-handed weapon it can be even larger, allowing both hands to fit easily perhaps with some space between them.

Look at the picture of a scimitar on pg 217. Where does a second hand fit on that?

Power Attack says "with a two-handed weapon". That seems to be a pretty specific reference to the type of weapon it is looking for. You can power attack with any melee attack, but it only gets +3/tier if it's a two handed weapon.

Actually, I think in my last quote from the PHB above shows that a Versatile weapon could indeed meet this requirement because it says that you are "using them as two-handed weapons." That seems to say that for the purpose of this attack, the weapon in question is in fact a two-handed weapon.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, regardless of all of this, the original point we were talking about was whether 2H weapons were actually more damaging than versatile weapons. Whether or not you can actually get the full Power Attack or Reaping Strike bonuses with them, the 2H weapons are still stronger when you look at weapons within the same group (Military -vs- Superior).

 

[Danceofmasks]

Stronger how?
That they do higher base damage?

'cos "may use a shield" makes 1-H weapons much stronger IMO.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I was specifically referencing another poster saying that the Bastard Sword was superior to the 2H Greatsword. In terms of damage though, 2H weapons are better than 1H and versatile 1H weapons from the same group.

As for which one is "better" overall though? Well...1H or 2H each have different pros and cons associated with them. Personally, I'm more of a shield guy myself. +2 AC and Reflex versus 2 extra damage and high crit (I use axes) is the better way to go in my opinion.

Plus, since I'm a Fighter some of my powers key off whether I'm going with 1H or 2H weapons, and I like the 1H + Shield powers better. For example, there's Tide of Iron and Iron Bulwark. I also like the Iron Vanguard PP because it suits my play style better. I like to mark lots of opponents and draw a lot of enemies, which means I need the higher AC and Reflex necessary to survive the attention that I'm gathering.

Others like to go for high damage though and use the 2H weapons. Neither is really "better" than the other, they're just different.

 

[DracoSuave]

Do you suggest that if a human fighter chooses to wield a dagger in two hands, it should count as a two-handed weapon for power attack?

Show me a dagger with the versatile trait, or a trait that says it can be used as a two-handed weapon. Until then, this is a strawman argument.

Versatile does -two things-. You can use a versatile weapon two-handed. That's one thing. Then, -if you do- you get +1 damage.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Show me a dagger with the versatile trait, or a trait that says it can be used as a two-handed weapon. Until then, this is a strawman argument.

It wasn't intended a a straw man, so I apologize for it turning into one.
It was intended as a logical extension of your statement that using a weapon in two hands is the same thing as using a two-handed weapon.
It's quite clearly not, but I was hoping to persuade you of this rather than flatly state it.

My reference.

I like Mike Mearls's opinion, and it's what I'd like to see, but D&D is a very strictly read set of rules.
Power Attack and Reaping Strike both say "when using a two-handed weapon", not "when using a weapon two-handed".

Versatile does -two things-. You can use a versatile weapon two-handed. That's one thing. Then, -if you do- you get +1 damage.

Neither of which makes the weapon two-handed. Therefore it is still a one-handed weapon. Therefore it is just as good as a dagger for the purposes of Power Attack, Reaping Strike, and all other powers that improve for two-handed weapons.

 

[DracoSuave]

As I've said, I've seen either CS response or similiar missive from Wizards that did the opposite opinion, I'm just buggered to find it.

As well, Mike Mearls was directly expressing his intention as to how the rules work. If -that- isn't Rules as Intended, I have no idea what is. Rules as Written can be interpreted either way.

So you have an ambiguous Rules as Written, one of the few instances of a definate Rules as Intended; common sense should be the one that applies.

Common sense tells me skill at using a two-handed weapon means you're skilled in using weapons in that style. Common sense tells me a weapon technique (an exploit) that involves both hands on the pommel is going to be effective with a weapon where you have both hands on the pommel. Common sense tells me to interpret it as intended, not as someone believes it is written.