3e and the Test of Time

[der_kluge]

EN has a valid point. I don't have a 1E DMG laying around to reference, and even if I did, I probably wouldn't use it, because anything that I *might* be inclined to reference out of it, I could probably find in any number of 3rd party sources nowadays. Does that stuff belong in a DMG? Not for me to answer.

I think the intent of the core books was to isolate fluff from crunch and provide (just the facts) with regards to the rules. I'm also displeased that there is as much fluff as there is regarding races and gods, and things of that nature, since most DMs are just as likely to change that stuff as anything else. So, in a way, my opinion is, "Who are *you* to tell me that all elves are good with bows, because in my campaign...". I'd almost wished they just left that stuff out, and then put all that flavor into a Greyhawk, or FR setting book. But, that's getting more in line with a GURPS style kind of rule book though, and that's not WoTC's mentality, be it for good or bad.

I certainly haven't felt any reason to reference my 2nd edition core books for anything. There are some very generic 2nd edition books that I still use - Aurora's Whole Realms comes to mind, for example. Book of artifacts is still very useful, and so it Legends and Lore. Those are great books which are mostly independent of the rules.

I think the reason so many people like the 1e DMG is that it was a grab bag for so much *stuff* which today would likely find a home in more specific, targeted sources nowadays.

 

[Belen]

To make sure nostalgia isn't clouding anyone's mind

Almost forgot, to respond to this one. I do not think that nostalgia has anything to do with it. I run 3e and I have run it since January of 2001 and I have no intention of going back to an older edition.

Sometimes I think about running a dark Sun or Planescape 1 shot with the old rules and that is nostalgia. I really do not think that 3e rulebooks will be anywhere near as useful 10 years from now than the 2e books I still use for flavor information to this day.

Heck, the Bard's Handbook is full of flavor goodness that gives you an idea of how to play different types of characters. Song and Silence gives you a few different feats and spells, but nothing more than that.

In 10e, those feats and spells will not even be a memory, but you will still be able to pick up the 2e Bard's Handbook and use a large portion of it.

 

[Psion]

I still use "Lands of Intrigue" and similar boxed sets, the "Faiths&Avatars" trilogy, and several other books. I even wish I still had my "Complete Guide to Paladins". Simply for the mechanics-removed information therein. Will that happen with Sword & Fist?

It's content will be repackages and republished, something that never happened for most 2e material.

But seriously, I far from think S&F is a shining gem of my collection. That said, of 1e & 2e products, I still have out:

My Planescape books/boxes
My encyclopedias (Magic items/spells)
World builder's handbook
Some other black cover sourcebooks (Country Sites, Castle Sites, etc.)
1e MotP, DSG, OA

Note here that stuff I still use is mostly idea content... nothing mechanical. Which should perhaps be unsurprising since, well, I am playing 3e.

But I use many more 3e books (WotC and third party). So what does that say?

What really constitutes a "test of time" for a system or edition? The mechanics? The creative material put out for it? I'm having a hard time imagining any valid test, or for that matter, the point of such a "test."

I do know that, for me at least, 2e was a game that I was ready to get out of, and I did not regret the passing of 1e. On the other hand, I am having a hard time seeing what they could do in a 4th edition that would convince me that it's worth ditching the utility of my collection of fascinating and well written materials from a variety of publishers. 3e -- and more specifically, the OGL and D20 STL -- brought variety and depth and possibilities to the game that it never had before.

 

[rogueattorney]

It's cyclical. 3e (and the 2e PO books that were its predecessors) is a reaction to the more story-telling bent D&D and other rpg's took in the late 80's and early 90's, which was a reaction to the more "crunchy" aspects of 1e and the simulationist-heavy games of the late 70's and early 80's, which was a reaction to the the rules-lite original rpg's. Things will eventually swing in another direction, whether within the D&D game itself, or in some other game that catches our collective imagination

R.A.

 

[Wolf72]

I think a new edition might appear when there's a few stagnant years of 3x (which I hope doesn't come, ... or at least waits until I have better finances to buy a whole new set of books)

I have lots of 1e stuff, even more 2e stuff (except adventures, almost all 1e), and fair amount of 3e ... I don't think a 4th edition of book is gonna make it on to my bookshelves.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Is it the holiday season or the coming new year that has everyone in such a DOOM!! and GLOOM!! funk?

Ahhh!! We're all gonna die! AHHH! Bah!

3e is ALREADY standing the test of time. We should stop worrying about things like 'how long will this last!' and '4e is coming!' and enjoy the game NOW.

Oh...and BelenUmeria, nostalgia can still affect you even if you refuse to go back to older editions.

 

[Abstraction]

Eh.

I gave away all my 2e stuff. I had no use for it. That was the game that actually drove me away from gaming for years. With 2e, I kept feeling like the designer were trying to force their idea of flavor down my throat. With 3e, I simply plug the ready-to-go rules into my homebrew world, tweak as needed.

You know, from a business standpoint, the fact that you still use pre-3e books today is a bad thing. If the books were as usable ten years from now as today, who is going to buy the books ten years from now? The rpg industry (but necessarily the player base) will grind down as the years go by and people buy fewer and fewer products. Heck, I think that is already starting to happen, but Wizards has been very smart about balancing players needs for long-useful books with the industry's need to keep selling books.

 

[diaglo]

3e is ALREADY standing the test of time. We should stop worrying about things like 'how long will this last!' and '4e is coming!' and enjoy the game NOW.

Oh...and BelenUmeria, nostalgia can still affect you even if you refuse to go back to older editions.

Oh... and Ankh-Morpork Guard, playing older editions NOW can still affect you even like they did back then. if you refuse to go backwards to newer editions.

 

[Belen]

You know, from a business standpoint, the fact that you still use pre-3e books today is a bad thing. If the books were as usable ten years from now as today, who is going to buy the books ten years from now? The rpg industry (but necessarily the player base) will grind down as the years go by and people buy fewer and fewer products. Heck, I think that is already starting to happen, but Wizards has been very smart about balancing players needs for long-useful books with the industry's need to keep selling books.

There will always been new ways of doing things, or new stories to tell. I use the older books because the 3e books do not provide what I need or even make the attempt.

 

[Shemeska]

To make sure nostalgia isn't clouding anyone's mind, you'd have to make sure to check with those who started with 3e and never saw earlier editions -- and let them peruse older materials. Do *they* think the older stuff is better/more inspiring/likely to stand the test of time?

With rare exceptions yes, I've found the older stuff to be more inspiring and flavorful. I started in 3e and subsequently went back and looked at the 2e material (Planescape primarily) and frankly a lot of what I saw was more interesting. Some of those books are simply a joy to read regardless of numbers, and I can't often say that's the case with many of the 3e books I've bought.

Yes the mechanics are better in 3e compared to the 2e stuff I've seen, but while it may be numerically more streamlined it suffers often from being bland, flavorless, uninspiring and when it does come to flavor text I find that it is many times a pastiche of what has been written before (and written better the 1st time).