Storminator
First Post
Re: Re: 3E shortcomings
Hey! What is TFT?
PS
ichabod said:
Hey! What is TFT?
PS
3E shortcomings
- Thread starter Harold Mayo
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Mithriltooth
First Post
Re: Re: 3E shortcomings
Agreed and disagreed.
We are all capable of forming an opinion on the subject, and since he asked we did just that. I have to agree with Ichabod's view on the min-maxing myself.
Storminator said:
Agreed and disagreed.
We are all capable of forming an opinion on the subject, and since he asked we did just that. I have to agree with Ichabod's view on the min-maxing myself.
Harold, you'll probably get a more sympathetic audience at Dragonsfoot.
A quick note for everyone involved. We don't do edition wars here. Please stick to positives and negatives of 3E only (like Harold actually did in his initial post) and this thread can have a long, healthy life.
A quick note for everyone involved. We don't do edition wars here. Please stick to positives and negatives of 3E only (like Harold actually did in his initial post) and this thread can have a long, healthy life.
Harold Mayo
First Post
I participate in forum discussions about a lot of different issues (mostly individual rights issues and RKBA) but haven't, despite my rpg addiction, really participated in any rpg forum until the past couple of weeks.
I must say that, with a few notable exceptions, the level of rudeness on THIS board far outweighs the level on forums devoted to inflammatory real-world issues. It is amazing to me that this is so.
To those who recommended Dragonsfoot...thank you. I've been reading it and the level of maturity there far exceeds what I have seen here. Really a pretty good site.
To address a few points:
Other editions have no more and no less problems than 3E. It's a matter of perception more than anything else. The ONLY thing that 3E really has over other editions is the core d20 rules. Additions can be made to make it "feel" more like older editions. It is EASIER to understand the new rules than to understand the older editions with the mish-mash of authors and optional rules. It is, and will be, FAR easier to produce material for d20 because of the increased consistency within the rules. Adding something on to them (like critical hit tables as opposed to the silly double damage thing) should be easier and make far more sense than in previous editions.
Ichabod has a valid point from one point of view. I do not railroad characters into particular archetypes in my campaign. Nor do I encourage any sort of min/maxing. I don't stick hard and fast to the 2E (or any) rules, which is why I have been praising 3E strongpoints and asking about its downfalls rather than bashing it and praising 2E or 1E (though no one seems to have noticed that fine point in their rants). Character class is mutable, kits and proficiencies can be gained and lost or abandoned, there are no experience points (I decide when PCs should advance based on the suitability to the ongoing story)...as you can see, I don't actually play any particular edition.
My problem is that you seem to have to map things out far too much in 3E. My game follows the PCs through their travels and adventures and they get skills in a logical manner as they go along. For example...the PCs once went on a quest to regain some items stolen from their king during a period of unrest in the kingdom. They ended up traveling by sea (where one of the PCs took an interest in the skills of a seaman and picked up the appropriate nonweapon proficiency) and spent a considerable amount of time among some religious desert nomads (where another PC picked up proficiency with the scimitar and got converted to their religion). This is a logical progression. Nothing absolutely prevents 3E from doing this, but it is more difficult because everything seems to point toward mapping out a character's progress from level 1 on up. Even all of the "official" material aims at min-maxing.
It is all, in the end, purely subjective. 3E likely suits many people, especially those who are a little younger and never played through all of the editions like I have, perfectly.
In retrospect, I guess that I have been disappointed because I was expecting 3E to solve all of the problems that I have had to correct in other editions of the game. Although it does that to a great extent, it raises other problems that need solving in their place.
In answer to a posting about trusting the people who have been publishing the game for years...well, the same people HAVEN'T been publishing the game for years. Many of those who are working on the "official" rules haven't played the game for more than a few years. If Gygax and the original TSR crew had been at the helm, then MAYBE, but they haven't. There have been some VERY good people come and go over the years but few, if any, stayed around.
I must say that, with a few notable exceptions, the level of rudeness on THIS board far outweighs the level on forums devoted to inflammatory real-world issues. It is amazing to me that this is so.
To those who recommended Dragonsfoot...thank you. I've been reading it and the level of maturity there far exceeds what I have seen here. Really a pretty good site.
To address a few points:
Other editions have no more and no less problems than 3E. It's a matter of perception more than anything else. The ONLY thing that 3E really has over other editions is the core d20 rules. Additions can be made to make it "feel" more like older editions. It is EASIER to understand the new rules than to understand the older editions with the mish-mash of authors and optional rules. It is, and will be, FAR easier to produce material for d20 because of the increased consistency within the rules. Adding something on to them (like critical hit tables as opposed to the silly double damage thing) should be easier and make far more sense than in previous editions.
Ichabod has a valid point from one point of view. I do not railroad characters into particular archetypes in my campaign. Nor do I encourage any sort of min/maxing. I don't stick hard and fast to the 2E (or any) rules, which is why I have been praising 3E strongpoints and asking about its downfalls rather than bashing it and praising 2E or 1E (though no one seems to have noticed that fine point in their rants). Character class is mutable, kits and proficiencies can be gained and lost or abandoned, there are no experience points (I decide when PCs should advance based on the suitability to the ongoing story)...as you can see, I don't actually play any particular edition.
My problem is that you seem to have to map things out far too much in 3E. My game follows the PCs through their travels and adventures and they get skills in a logical manner as they go along. For example...the PCs once went on a quest to regain some items stolen from their king during a period of unrest in the kingdom. They ended up traveling by sea (where one of the PCs took an interest in the skills of a seaman and picked up the appropriate nonweapon proficiency) and spent a considerable amount of time among some religious desert nomads (where another PC picked up proficiency with the scimitar and got converted to their religion). This is a logical progression. Nothing absolutely prevents 3E from doing this, but it is more difficult because everything seems to point toward mapping out a character's progress from level 1 on up. Even all of the "official" material aims at min-maxing.
It is all, in the end, purely subjective. 3E likely suits many people, especially those who are a little younger and never played through all of the editions like I have, perfectly.
In retrospect, I guess that I have been disappointed because I was expecting 3E to solve all of the problems that I have had to correct in other editions of the game. Although it does that to a great extent, it raises other problems that need solving in their place.
In answer to a posting about trusting the people who have been publishing the game for years...well, the same people HAVEN'T been publishing the game for years. Many of those who are working on the "official" rules haven't played the game for more than a few years. If Gygax and the original TSR crew had been at the helm, then MAYBE, but they haven't. There have been some VERY good people come and go over the years but few, if any, stayed around.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Harold Mayo said:
The thing is, the issues you address have been soundly and constantly thrashed out over the course of the past (almost) 3 years on this and many other RPG boards. It has resulted in flame war after flame war and much hard feelings on both sides. It isn't your fault that you didn't know that, but conversely, it isn't the fault of many who read your post to either assume it is a troll or gear up for battle. You have chosen perhaps the most inflammatory subject to address on the the largest fansite devoted to 3e. I'm sorry that it has gotten heated so fast, but you can imagine how the past 3 years have been - this is actually a fairly mild thread compared to many of those in the past.
Shadowlord
Member
OR play another RPG. (I'm not sarcastic!)
But WHAT game should you play then?
There are so many it's almost impossible to choose. Let alone find some players. Actually, that was and is the goal of d20. Eventually we might see one major system (d20) and some other minor companies.
John Smallberries
First Post
3e Strengths:
1. It provides a solid framework for min-maxing. Unlike other games which *crumble* in the face of a good min-maxer (White Wolf, I'm looking at you), 3e has a level of min-max tolerance already built into the system.
2. It encourages dynamic, exciting and effective characters. Instead of the combats you see in some fantasy movies where only a couple of characters can employ really cool moves (Legolas) while the others are relegated to the 'combat short bus' (Hobbits), 3e allows any character to pursue an interesting style. What's also cool is that you get some really neat wuxia/anime flavor, instead of the boring old sword & board stuff we've seen done to death.
3. 3e provides you with so many choices and opportunies to customize your character that you can actually plan out your character's development and have it really matter in play. The fact is, you have an unprecedented level of control over your character's development (rather than leaving it all up to your DM). Yay options!
4. Following what I said above, Feats are another great addition to a player's toolbox. Whether you are a combat monster, a skill master or just about anything else, Feats help you focus your character on the aspects of play *you* find interesting.
5. 3e is simple and enables you to gain a lot of power quickly. All I can say to that is: "It's about time!". The rules aren't just easy to learn and understand, they're also logical and fairly cosistent. The bast part is that 3e covers just about everything, leaving very little for a DM to have to interpret or 'fill in'---which takes a lot of the load off of already overworked DMs. As for being fast-paced---I love the fact that I can finally complete an entire campaign from first to 20th level in under a year.
1. It provides a solid framework for min-maxing. Unlike other games which *crumble* in the face of a good min-maxer (White Wolf, I'm looking at you), 3e has a level of min-max tolerance already built into the system.
2. It encourages dynamic, exciting and effective characters. Instead of the combats you see in some fantasy movies where only a couple of characters can employ really cool moves (Legolas) while the others are relegated to the 'combat short bus' (Hobbits), 3e allows any character to pursue an interesting style. What's also cool is that you get some really neat wuxia/anime flavor, instead of the boring old sword & board stuff we've seen done to death.
3. 3e provides you with so many choices and opportunies to customize your character that you can actually plan out your character's development and have it really matter in play. The fact is, you have an unprecedented level of control over your character's development (rather than leaving it all up to your DM). Yay options!
4. Following what I said above, Feats are another great addition to a player's toolbox. Whether you are a combat monster, a skill master or just about anything else, Feats help you focus your character on the aspects of play *you* find interesting.
5. 3e is simple and enables you to gain a lot of power quickly. All I can say to that is: "It's about time!". The rules aren't just easy to learn and understand, they're also logical and fairly cosistent. The bast part is that 3e covers just about everything, leaving very little for a DM to have to interpret or 'fill in'---which takes a lot of the load off of already overworked DMs. As for being fast-paced---I love the fact that I can finally complete an entire campaign from first to 20th level in under a year.
Tewligan
First Post
What I like so much about 3e is the options available, from which you can pick and choose. Sure, you could build a min/max monster if you used every option available, but I think a lot of DMs place limits to suit their game. For example, in the campaign I play in, XP awards are greatly reduced from the DMG guidelines, so we don't have the video game-style habit of suddenly levelling up after every couple of combats. Multiclassing, prestige classes, and certain feats aren't allowed willy-nilly - there must be some roleplay-related reason for someone to say "Hey, now that I've got enough XPs, I suddenly have a class of Shadow Dancer!" This is the most customizable edition of D&D yet - you can have 20th level buttstompers gleefully wading through dragons, or you can have low-powered characters fighting grimly for their lives against a band of orcs. Just because you have 50 different spices in your kitchen doesn't mean they all have to go into the stew you're cooking.
That's a feature, not a bug. I recall seeing one of the 3e architects (probably Monte Cook) saying that they designed the game so the "average" group would gain one level per month of playing: one four-hour session per week, one encounter per hour -> four encounters per session, encounters average out to provide "normal" EL ->16 "average" encounters per month with some loss due to resurrections and the like -> 1 level/month.Harold Mayo said:
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