D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Sorceror

[Chaosmancer]

In the DMG, it calls out the material component of Plane Shift to be "an important limitation" where "even the act of researching the correct specification can lead to adventure." So it is indeed an intended limitation for at least a few spells.

So this is a situation where the problem is poor communication from the DMG, fair enough. But the Plane Shift component is also special in that it needs a non-wealth component. Is the monetary cost actually a balancing factor or not?

Not everyone sees things the same way as you.

Really? We aren't all a sentient hive-mid with the exact same thoughts and feelings? Well boy, isn't that egg on my tentacled face.

More seriously, maybe you should think about what that phrase means for your position as well. Just because not everyone agrees with me doesn't mean that everyone actually agrees with you. And, again, I've never seen players hyper-invested in randomly costly items they were forced to pick up.

You can tell players how long you plan on running a campaign as part of their informed decision process. Its not like I'm advocating to have players choose their favorite 9th-level spells when we're ending the campaign at level 5. The implication is that the spell isn't banned, its something to aspire to and acquire. Just like a magic item. Just like scrolls and spellbooks.

So... step 1 be psychic and able to inform players of what the future holds.

I didn't know how far this game would get in the few months we had, and actually, I expected us to go much further than we did. So I couldn't have informed them because I would have been devastatingly wrong. But beyond that... actually yes you are telling them to pick their 9th level spell at level 5. Because if their 9th level spell has a component that takes 1 year to acquire in game, and the game is only going to last about a year in game... then by level 5 if they aren't locked into the process, then they aren't going to get it. They can't. They won't have enough time.

This is the fundamental flaw with the crafting system. It takes so long you have to start making things far above your limitations, because if you don't then by the time you are done making it, it isn't needed anymore.

Is it just too devastating for your players to hear "You probably don't have time to do both." Again, I assume the players won't throw a hissy-fit being told "not now."

At what point during the level up process for a Paladin going from level 10 to level 11 do they get their Improved Divine Smite feature? Is it during the level up process, between sessions, or is it 5 sessions later after completing a quest to earn their feature?

This isn't about childish "hissy-fits" despite you consistently trying to infantalize the players to make your position seem stronger. This is about players, calmly and rationally, looking at the situation and going "why are you forcing me to make this seemingly arbitrary and pointless decision?" And yes, it does appear pointless, because you still haven't provided any evidence that these costly components are actually a balancing factor in any serious sense. Whether the item is just simply in the hoard they just got right before the level up, or they had to go and specifically go and kill something that had that item is not a factor in balance.

There's guidance in the DMG about how downtime passes:

"As the party gains levels, you can add more downtime between adventures to give characters the time they need to pursue such interests [to undertake more projects that require more time between adventures]. Whereas days or weeks might pass between low-level adventures, the amount of downtime between higher-level adventures might be measured in months or years."

So its supported in the base game and, uh, side-quests are a constant thing in all media especially the type where "we need to get stronger before we face the threat."

"You can"
"Might pass"
Might be measured"

That isn't guidance. Or support. It is all.... DMing style. Maybe you have a few days between adventures, maybe a few years, who can say. And no, side-quests are not constant.

Take the new DnD movie.

IS getting Simon a side-quest? Nope, it it part of the main questline.
Doric? Nope, part of the main quest.
Spying on enemy? Nope, part of the quest.
Speak with Dead? Main Questline
Paladin? Main Quest
Helmet? Main Quest.

About the only thing that could possibly be a side-quest is them stopping to talk to Olga's Ex-husband. And the point of that from the perspective of the "players" is rounding out her emotional arc, not a side-quest for any item or power.

Uh, we were always adding class features. Remember extra attack is a class feature?

Btw, how'd you suppose the caster was able to add their mod to EB? It's almost like the point I made was that EB was very good when you enhance it with class features but as an isolated ranged attack, it's far behind the better at-will options.

Couple of ways they could do it in theory. By the way, did you notice how Firebolt is also better than the ranger? Evoker Wizards can do that, along with Draconic Sorcerers, and really a lot of casters get ways to add their mod to their cantrips.

Also, isn't kind of weird you want to say that 21 is "far behind" 23.5 after adding the ranger's class ability, but you completely want to ignore the fairly common addition to firebolt bringing it to 27. If 2.5 is "far behind" then what do you call a difference of 3.5? REALLY far behind?

 

[Minigiant]

Hmmm... I'm not sold on Ensorcell.

I actually think a better implementation of something like that is what I did with giving new uses for sorcery points (i also used spell point and combined the pools, FYI). Allow them to spend 1 pt to get advantage on social checks. Then if you want to be an enchanter, there are plenty of low-level enchantment spells which can be used and only really need rebalanced to be useful. I mean, conceptually, with Charm Person, Cause Fear, and Calm Emotions you have the gamut pretty well covered. They just need rebalanced mechanically.

Ideally I'd want an evocation and an enchantment that you could put sorcery points in it to go wild with power or tame it into a focused point.


Like you should be able to spend sorcery points on Chaos Bolt to make it half damage on failed save or pick the element.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ideally I'd want an evocation and an enchantment that you could put sorcery points in it to go wild with power or tame it into a focused point.


Like you should be able to spend sorcery points on Chaos Bolt to make it half damage on failed save or pick the element.

I think the spend them for half damage works as a metamagic. And I'm fine with chaos bolt being... chaotic.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

Right now, if I had to choose between sorcerer and wizard, I'd rather play a sorcerer. I like the round-to-round choices granted by metamagic and spell points. Seems really fun. And I dig the flavor, too.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the spend them for half damage works as a metamagic. And I'm fine with chaos bolt being... chaotic.

The idea is that sorcerers should have spells with direct sorcery point mechanics tied to them.

 

[Shardstone]

I like the new sorcerer a lot. I wish they would ditch spell slots entirely and go straight to an all point system, but I understand they don't want to deviate that much.

I want more "sorcerer class" spells though. I'd ideally like a spell for every subclass in addition to the Sorcery Incarnate modifcications. For example, there could be a dragon spell that at 1st level is a fear effect, cast at 3rd level it's a draconic body part with a rider effect you attack with, and cast at 5th level its a more magical version of a dragon's breath weapon.

I think one of these for every subclass would help me better enjoy the Spell-as-Class-Feature mechanics in Mages as well as make the Sorcerer a little more fun.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The idea is that sorcerers should have spells with direct sorcery point mechanics tied to them.

I see the idea, I'm just not sure. Balancing that alongside metamagics would be tricky. And the designers will likely underpower it in that case, making it just a point sink.

Thematically, it would be cool, just mechanically I don't think it would be what we'd want.

 

[MoonSong]

I see the idea, I'm just not sure. Balancing that alongside metamagics would be tricky. And the designers will likely underpower it in that case, making it just a point sink.

Thematically, it would be cool, just mechanically I don't think it would be what we'd want.

Yeah, the biggest problem plaguing the sorcerer is the designers not thinking it twice before adding new experimental mechanics to it while overvaluing them into uselessness.

 

[Minigiant]

I see the idea, I'm just not sure. Balancing that alongside metamagics would be tricky. And the designers will likely underpower it in that case, making it just a point sink.

Thematically, it would be cool, just mechanically I don't think it would be what we'd want.

They problem is that WOTC balanced poorly.

But Sorcerer spells working like 3.5e Psion powers is very thematic.