D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Sorceror

[Nadan]

I was curious about the distribution of options, so I ran the numbers. Rolling 6d6, there are 6^6 = 46656 results.

# of options	Count	Probability
1	6	~0.013%
2	930	2.0%
3	10800	23%
4	23400	50%
5	10800	23%
6	720	~1.5%

As you can see, the vast majority of the time, you'll be able to pick from 3-5 of the 6 options. If you want 1 particular option, you have ~66.5% chance of being able to choose it.

I think the problem is if you want damage, there are spell better than it; if you want control, there are spells target better save than it. And those spell also cheaper. It just a meh and backup spell if you don't have anything more useful to cast.
Edit: Target con save is the major reason why it is meh, it is like, the mostly likely save enemy could pass.
Edit2: Able to pick the damage type it deal is great...if only it is on Arcane list instead of sorcerer only, due to having Transmuted spell, and it is a cheap metamagic.

 

[mellored]

If you want 1 particular option, you have ~66.5% chance of being able to choose it.

I think the problem is if you want damage, there are spell better than it; if you want control, there are spells target better save than it.

Is there anything stopping you from using Empowered spell repeatedly, until you roll a 1?

 

[Nadan]

Is there anything stopping you from using Empowered spell repeatedly, until you roll a 1?

If you want control, why don't cast Hypnotic Pattern? Fear? Raulothim's Psychic Lance? They all target better save.
Even Slow is better, at least it target Wis save.

 

[Stalker0]

Is there anything stopping you from using Empowered spell repeatedly, until you roll a 1?

The metamagic requires that you use the new rolls.

Now as to wether you could do your rerolls 1 at a time, deciding to stop at any point, rather than rolling all the rerolls at once…seems open to interpretation.

 

[mellored]

The metamagic requires that you use the new rolls.

And if you use it a second time, you reroll the new rolls.

Though I guess not because
"You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell"

If you want control, why don't cast Hypnotic Pattern? Fear? Raulothim's Psychic Lance? They all target better save.
Even Slow is better, at least it target Wis save.

Not all creatures have a high Con.
And the Incapacitaion is not affected by immune to frightened or charm.

What you really want is a mix of saves. And you have 12 other spells to prepare.

 

[Gorck]

Here is a synopsis of the conversation I had last night with my daughter about Sorcerers:

I feel like One D&D was a missed opportunity. Wizards gain their magic by studying and poring over dusty tomes, scrolls, and manuscripts, so their magic works off of Intelligence. Warlocks gain their magic by making a bargain with a higher being and pleading for their spells, so their magic works off of Charisma*. Sorcerers have their magic inside them from birth and it eventually manifests over time, so their magic works off of . . . Charisma?! Wouldn’t Constitution make more sense? Besides, (A) no class currently uses Constitution as its primary ability score, (B) Sorcerers already get Proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and (C) this would make Sorcerers better at Concentration checks as they wrestle with their innate powers.

*I know this is currently changed to a choice of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma in the latest UA, but nothing is set in stone just yet.

 

[Stalker0]

If you want control, why don't cast Hypnotic Pattern? Fear? Raulothim's Psychic Lance? They all target better save.
Even Slow is better, at least it target Wis save.

Lets so a comparison to see how Hypnotic Pattern and Arcane Eruption stack up with each other.

*-Indicates this effect is superior to the other spell.

	Hypnotic Pattern	Arcane Eruption
Level	3*	4
Range	120	120
Components	S,M*	S,V
Area	30 foot cube	20 foot burst*
Friendly Fire	Yes	Yes
Damage	0	6d6 almost any type*
Effect	Charmed -> Incapacitated*	Various
Concentration	Yes	No*
Duration	1 minute or until take damage, action to wake	End of next round, no removal
Save	Wis*	Con

So to me its a mixed bag. AE has the better area, and obviously does damage (that's practically irresistable considering the number of types you can draw from). Also, no concentration is a BIG deal. However, HP is consistent (which is quite important) and the wisdom save is definately a better option.

AE works on things immune to charm which is a niche to note. I think the duration is a wash. 1 minute is obviously longer, but with AE I can still pound on the damage without waking them up.

It is worth noting that HP works in silence, which again is a useful niche to note.


So ultimately I can see niches for both. The way I see this is, if your a damage focused sorc, they you can lay on damage and get in a nice control effect, which is just solid. Also the high variety of energy types is going to be very appealing to you, as well as no-concentration. However, if your focus is on control, I think the consistency of HP (both in effect and in saving throw) will likely win you over. When your a controller you HATE randomness, you want your thing to work as consistently as possible, and HP offers the better bargain here.

I think the real question then is.... if we compare this to a 4th level fireball (aka 9d6 damage assuming fireball doesn't get nerfed...which it certainly might), is the ability to shift your energy type and throw on a variable control effect worth 3d6 damage? I think it is.

 

[Nadan]

I think the real question then is.... if we compare this to a 4th level fireball (aka 9d6 damage assuming fireball doesn't get nerfed...which it certainly might), is the ability to shift your energy type and throw on a variable control effect worth 3d6 damage? I think it is.

The thing is don't upcast fireball, it cost performance ratio is best as 3th level spell, and you can pair it with empower and transmute to achieve some amazing numbers. You just need to know that only reroll 1 and 2.

Empower don't pair well with AB. If you aim for damage, you will only have some lame, common resisted conditions and still lower damage than normal fireball; if you aim for control, like you said, controler HATE randomness.

Edit: If I really want to land an Incapacitated to certain enemy but can't HP due to concentration or charm immune, I prefer use Raulothim's Psychic Lance. It is a single target spell but it target an excellent save : int, and it also have 7d6 or half damage.
Edit2: And if they nerf fireball, I will go apeshit in their survey to let them understand my opinion that damage spells should buff up to fireball level, not other way around, due to how fast 5e monster's hp bloat up.

 

[mellored]

Empower don't pair well with AB. If you aim for damage, you will only have some lame, common resisted conditions and still lower damage than normal fireball; if you aim for control, like you said, controler HATE randomness.

It does because it lets you roll what you want. Just be smart about it.

If you roll a 2,2,2,3,4,6
Then reroll 2 of the 2's, and the 3. That way you will still get a blind, and have a decent chance at Incapacitated.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Sorcerous Burst: As cool as this might look, when it comes to the math the simple truth is, it turns your average from 3.5 to ~4.... so effectively weaker than a 1d8 cantrip! It gets a little spicier at higher levels as you have more chances to activate the bursts, but this is never going to be "toll the dead" levels of damage.

There's actually a really good article showing the derivation for the expected value of exploding dice.

The short answer is that the average value of an exploding die is the average value of the normal die multiplied by N/(N-1), where N is the number of sides.

So:

d4! = 2.5 * ⁴⁄₃ = ~3.33 (3 ⅓)
d6! = 3.5 * ⁶⁄₅ = 4.2 (4 ⅕)
d8! = 4.5 * ⁸⁄₇ = ~5.14 (5 ⅐)
d10! = 5.5 * ¹⁰⁄₉ = ~6.11 (6 ⅑)
d12! = 6.5 * ¹²⁄₁₁ = ~7.09 (7 ¹⁄₁₁)

@Kinematics might be interested in the math, too.