4 classes...major or minor effect?

[Broken Fang]

OK...I know there have been many discusssions of only having four "core" classes with all the prestige class options out there. These are some ideas our group has had, but none have been playtested yet...comments?

Cleric:
Increase skill points to 4
Add Knowledge (all) and Sense Motive as class skills
* Still has d8 HD, good BAB, good saves, and spells (+domain)

Fighter:
Increase skill points to 4
Allow optional set of class skills with defined character background to be approved by DM
* d10 HD, best BAB, lots of feats

Rogue:
Increase skill points to 10
Add Knowledge (all) and Speak Language as class skills
* d6 HD, lots of special abilities, skills, skills, and more skills

Wizard:
Increase skill points to 4
Use spells per day list as Druid
* d4 HD, poor BAB, spells (improved but still fewer than the Cleric)

We have also added many new feats (some from ex-class special abilities...Rage, etc.) to make the Fighter more attractive at higher levels.

 

[lobo]

Rewriting D&D

I like it!

I have consider modify the base system in several ways, one was simular to yours. I would not give the Rogue 10 skill points though. Also I would change the feat progession to a feat every odd level. That way a 20th level character would have 10 feats rather than 7. As a class goes up in level you have something to look forward to.
Also perhaps provide specific racial and class feat lists.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Changes to Cleric:
Not all clerics are as "bookish" as wizards - so adding the 4 class skills seems out of place. There is a feat called Education - that gives you "knowledge all" as a set of class skills. If you have to pop a feat to get it - don't hand it out for free.

Sense motive? Maybe create a domain where this is the case - don't know about your campaign.

Fighter:
A WHOLE lot depends on what skills you add into that - as is the list is so limited that it is nigh pointless for fighters to be "smart".

Rogue:
Oh dear - do NOT do this - The Education feat from the FRCS argument applies.
Adding speak language however - flip a coin - it doesn't much matter after 5th level when the wizard can get the tounges spell.

Wizard:
WHY do this?
you have specialization, rings of wizardry, spell storing - bonus spells (as your intelligence IS the stat you pump) and just about every trick in the book to spike your number of spells.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd do three classes, and a different set-up.

Fighter: Combat-oriented class. D10 hit die. Good Fort or Reflex, Good BAB, 2 skill points/level. Martial and Simple weapons. Collapse all armor into Light and Heavy instead of Light, Medium, Heavy, and give a Fighter any 3 Fighter feats at 1st level, plus another at every even level. These can include things like rage, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, plus the other standard fighter feats.

Expert: Skills-oriented class. D4 Hit Die. Any one good save. Poor BAB, 10 skill points/level. All skills are class skills. At 1st level and every 4 thereafter, give a bonus feat. It can be any type of feat, even combat or magic-related.

Magus: Magic-oriented class. D4 Hit Die. Good Will save. Poor BAB, 2 skill points/level. Bonus magic feat every few levels, like wizards. All spells are on their spell lists. I'm toying with giving them points to distribute for spell slots and spells learned. Spells learned can be cast without preparation, but a magus can always try to prepare a spell he doesn't "know." Combines wizard and sorcerer-style magic.

Common class-combinations would be:

Rogue: They gain fighter and expert levels at a ratio of 2 to 3. So a 5th level rogue would be a Fighter 2/Expert 3. He'd have 64 skill points (same as a standard rogue 5), a base attack bonus of +3 (same as standard rogue), and an average of 20 hp (same as a standard rogue). He'd probably take light armor proficiency and sneak attack three times as his Fighter feats, then take Uncanny Dodge as his Expert feat.

Cleric: They'd progress evenly as Fighters and Magi. The bonus magic feats and bonus combat feats from each class kind of balance out the slower spell progression, but remember that they'd have more powerful spells at a given level than most clerics get. Their BAB would be the same as a cleric, and feats like toughness could pick up the slack of lower HP. Turn undead could be a spell.

I think it's a fairly flexible system. I think I'll even submit it to Asgard when I get a chance to flesh it out better.

 

[hong]

OK...I know there have been many discusssions of only having four "core" classes with all the prestige class options out there. These are some ideas our group has had, but none have been playtested yet...comments?

(snip)

I'm not sure why having only four classes means having to power up each of them. Care to explain why?

 

[Broken Fang]

Ok...lets see if I can answer all of the questions.

1. I added skill points to everyone because I think they were to low to begin with. I know I shouldn't compare D&D to the "real" world but adding the skill points to all classes just allows you to flesh out your character more. I don't use much more the the 3 core books and house rules...so I don't know why giving Rogues (the jack-of-all trades) 2 extra skill points like everyone else gets is a big deal.

2. Magic items are pretty rare...right now the party is 5th level and the only items are a few potions, a wand, and ONE +1 heavy pick. So wizards do not have a whole lot of options in increasing their spells per day...plus I never understood why Clerics cast more than the Wizard.

3. Clerics would gain Sense Motive and Knowledge (all) as options...remember it doesn't mean they will have the skill if it is a class skill, just the option is there. As the Church would have access to a library I figure they should have access to the Knowledge skills and some would be trained in Sense Motive.

4. The Fighter core skills must be developed through background information. It must be approved by the DM. You might get a Scout set - climb, swim, move silently, spot, listen, and hide. You might come up with a light/fast fighter type with tumble, balance, climb, etc. It allows for some custom fighters.

RW - I like it...might have to go that route instead. I was wondering the best way to get only one spellcaster.

Hong -
I'm not sure adding 2 skill points and a few extra class skills is "powering up" the classes. It seems to me most are pretty darn weak in this area already...w/o bonus points from INT the D&D Fighter is pretty lame in knowing how to do things (should this be the case?). Adding the extra few skills is just something that should fit in with most of the classes and provides some variety.
See #2 about Wizards and their spells per day. I still don't know why the "masters" of magic have one of the worst spells per day lists (fewer than both Clerics and Druids?). And once you get to high level cleric spells are pretty darn nasty in the attack variety (destruction and harm are two I can think of off the top of my head).

Thanks for the input. Keep it coming if the above responses helped or didn't we want to try it out but are waiting for responses to see what fellow gamers think. Thanks again.

 

[Broken Fang]

Only going to bump it once.

 

[RangerWickett]

What's left to discuss?

 

[Broken Fang]

I like your ideas but was wondering if you thought bumping both FTR and Expert up to 4 skill points. I like rounded out characters and think that most of the classes get to few. What do you think? Have you done anymore work on your Magus?

 

[twjensen]

Re: Rewriting D&D

I like it!

I have consider modify the base system in several ways, one was simular to yours. I would not give the Rogue 10 skill points though. Also I would change the feat progession to a feat every odd level. That way a 20th level character would have 10 feats rather than 7. As a class goes up in level you have something to look forward to.
Also perhaps provide specific racial and class feat lists.

You pretty much have to give the rogue more skill points if you give the others more skill points. Otherwise the wizard ends up with more skill points than the rogue!

I don't really see the need to give anyone extra skill points. In the modern world everyone gets 12+ years of education and has lots of spare time to learn things like bicycle riding and juggling. In a medieval culture, everyone is busy harvesting crops and such.