4 years of 5E on Amazon: same old same old

ad_hoc

(they/them)
RPGS:

2013 - $15 million
2014 - $25 million (release of 5e mid 2014)
2015 - $35 million
2016 - $45 million
2017 - $55 million

2018 will be even higher.

Starfinder, the 2nd best selling RPG got as high as 89 on Amazon and is currently sitting around 6000.

Huge growth in retail sales, and most of that has to be 5E. And of course that entirely separate from whatever they are making in online sales.

Are you sure it isn't both?
 
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darjr

I crit!
Icv2 doesn’t talk to online retailers, though some of the brick and mortar sell online. I’d guess those are no where near amazon numbers. Those brick and mortar on sales are probably a tiny fraction of amazon numbers, but that’s just a guess.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...-Market-Increases-To-1-55M-D-D-Remains-On-Top

RPG market 55 million, 2013 was 13 million so 40+ million of that is likely D&D sales.

Absolute figures its peak D&D, adjust for inflation its very close to 1983 but that was only a single year maybe 82, 80 and 81 were smaller although 81 to 83 were the good years.
Absolute peak probably not (1983>2018 adjusted for inflation), overall peak probably as 5E has had 3 great years in a row, golden age had 1 or 2 at least in these kinds of levels.

Depending on who you want to believe peak golden age D&D got around 50-68 million adjusted for inflation (20-27 million 1983). Its ivery close or just over of the lower estimates of the golden age and I guess in 2013 a good chunk of that 13 million would have been Pathfinder (it was number 1) and I expect a few of them have migrated to 5E assuming online games played

It's that PLUS Amazon PLUS Barnes and Noble PLUS Walmart (etc.) sales. These are just retail sales + Kickstarter, with no online sales included, which is the bulk of 5e sales. Admit it - we're at peak. It's not even close. We've well exceeded 1983.
 

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...-Market-Increases-To-1-55M-D-D-Remains-On-Top

RPG market 55 million, 2013 was 13 million so 40+ million of that is likely D&D sales.

Absolute figures its peak D&D, adjust for inflation its very close to 1983 but that was only a single year maybe 82, 80 and 81 were smaller although 81 to 83 were the good years.
Absolute peak probably not (1983>2018 adjusted for inflation), overall peak probably as 5E has had 3 great years in a row, golden age had 1 or 2 at least in these kinds of levels.

Depending on who you want to believe peak golden age D&D got around 50-68 million adjusted for inflation (20-27 million 1983). Its ivery close or just over of the lower estimates of the golden age and I guess in 2013 a good chunk of that 13 million would have been Pathfinder (it was number 1) and I expect a few of them have migrated to 5E assuming online games played
Fine. We'll do this. Again.

As I have told you before (repeatedly) the 27 million is not for D&D. It's for TSR.
Which is like pointing out the revenue for WotC in 2004 and saying 5e isn't doing as well as 3e as WotC made more money then than RPGs did now.
(The 27 million was also *projected*. And they were wrong.)

TSR had numerous games for sale with multiple RPG lines in 1983 (Top Secret, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Gangbusters, and Star Frontiers) and many board games, including the large hit Dungeon! Plus Dragon magazine, which was only somewhat related to D&D at the time.

Also keep in mind to sobering facts. First, TSR was run by a bunch or random non-businessmen who were in no way accountants. Do you think their books were accurate? They accidentally doubled their revenue for a period.
Looking at the numbers, the Wall Street Journal pegged sales at $2.3M, 8.7, 14, and 22 for '79 through '82.
(Again, I return your attention to the *projection* of $27M, which was completely wrong.)

Additionally, those sales were a brief spike. The D&D surge of 1979-1983. Sales were below expectations in '82 by $5M, and in 1983 sales were only $26.7M, as growth stalled before declining. (TSR had been expecting $45 million in 1983, for some reason ignoring the missed expectations of '82.)
Following which, sales steadily declined and TSR stumbled around making increasingly poor decisions.


Now, let's do some math. Adding up the five known figures we get a total of $73.7 million for TSR for 1979-1983. Which is AD&D, Basic D&D, and all their other RPGs, wargames, and board games. (Dragon Magazine alone would be pulling in $720,000 annually.)
Respectable.
Putting the numbers into a inflation calculator and that's and impressive $198,000,000. Decent.

Let's return to the ICv2 figures.
The role-playing game industry was $15 million in 2013, when D&D wasn't releasing anything major. That's Pathfinder at its height (it's sales only decline meanwhile) and no other major retail challengers.
So the $10 million boost between 2013 and 2015 is pretty much D&D. (We can assuming it was 75% that in 2014, with six to sell 5e but the high selling core books.)
So a ballpark is $7.5M, 10, 20, 30, 40. For a total of $107,500,000. Which is probably *mostly* all D&D.

But, you say, that's less than $198M. True. But I'm not including any board games or other products in that. WotC probably makes an eff-tonne in licencing that wouldn't be included in the totals. Again, TSR sold a lot of other products.
And, this is key, even if the $198M was all D&D, it would be divided between AD&D and Basic.


So, is D&D making more money than it was in 1982? Adjusted for inflation, probably not. But it's probably pretty darn close.
Amusingly, it made comparable money in 2014 as 1979 and in 2015 and in 1980. But the spike of '81 and '82 level 2016-17 behind.

But... while D&D plateaued in 1982, 5e has continued to grow steadily in 2018. At this steady rate of growth, D&D passes TSR's money earned over the same period of years by 2021. And even if 5e slows, that still only delays things by a couple years. At this point, it's pretty much inevitable that 5e will make more total money, adjusted for inflation, than early 1980s TSR. All WotC has to do is not collapse and have a huge fight over management leading to bankruptcy.
And, again, that's all of TSR

Interestingly, the article linked above pegs the Basic Set's sales at 12,000 copies a month. Impressive. But still less than the 5e PHB's 15,000 per month... on Amazon alone.
So 5e's PHB has undoubtedly sold more copies than either the 1e PHB or the D&D Basic set. So while 5e cannot currently match the impressive sales spike of D&D Basic AND AD&D 1e combined, it more than exceeds sales of both individually.


I look forward to you continuing to ignore all this, and maintaining that D&D individually made $27 million in 1982 and how the 1e PHB outsold the current one.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
RPGS:




Are you sure it isn't both?

Icv2 doesn’t talk to online retailers, though some of the brick and mortar sell online. I’d guess those are no where near amazon numbers. Those brick and mortar on sales are probably a tiny fraction of amazon numbers, but that’s just a guess.

So it turns out those numbers include kickstarter, they may also include specialty online retailers. They may, may also include places like toystores, which are tracked for other games (ie pockemon).

Kickstarter may account for a few million each year, though that seems to have been the case for a while now, some of the biggest RPG kickstarters were back in 2015 and 2016. Specialty online retail is probably important for smaller RPGs that you may not be able to get otherwise. I do wonder if they are able to track things like the starter set sold through Walmart.

I don't think it includes Amazon or booksellers.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Kickstarter may account for a few million each year, though that seems to have been the case for a while now, some of the biggest RPG kickstarters were back in 2015 and 2016.

The biggest one ever was this year. Matt Colville with $2M.
 



TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
The biggest one ever was this year. Matt Colville with $2M.

Anyways, its 5E compatible.

We actually have an Amazon bookstore now (yes, there is irony) they had AiM, the Tal'dorei/Critical Hits campaign setting and Tome of Beasts along with all the 5E books. (Also some Cypher System--also KS--and PF, didnt see any CoC, FF, Evil Hat, etc).

I am hoping for much more of this.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Fine. We'll do this. Again.

As I have told you before (repeatedly) the 27 million is not for D&D. It's for TSR.
Which is like pointing out the revenue for WotC in 2004 and saying 5e isn't doing as well as 3e as WotC made more money then than RPGs did now.
(The 27 million was also *projected*. And they were wrong.)

TSR had numerous games for sale with multiple RPG lines in 1983 (Top Secret, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Gangbusters, and Star Frontiers) and many board games, including the large hit Dungeon! Plus Dragon magazine, which was only somewhat related to D&D at the time.

Also keep in mind to sobering facts. First, TSR was run by a bunch or random non-businessmen who were in no way accountants. Do you think their books were accurate? They accidentally doubled their revenue for a period.
Looking at the numbers, the Wall Street Journal pegged sales at $2.3M, 8.7, 14, and 22 for '79 through '82.
(Again, I return your attention to the *projection* of $27M, which was completely wrong.)

Additionally, those sales were a brief spike. The D&D surge of 1979-1983. Sales were below expectations in '82 by $5M, and in 1983 sales were only $26.7M, as growth stalled before declining. (TSR had been expecting $45 million in 1983, for some reason ignoring the missed expectations of '82.)
Following which, sales steadily declined and TSR stumbled around making increasingly poor decisions.


Now, let's do some math. Adding up the five known figures we get a total of $73.7 million for TSR for 1979-1983. Which is AD&D, Basic D&D, and all their other RPGs, wargames, and board games. (Dragon Magazine alone would be pulling in $720,000 annually.)
Respectable.
Putting the numbers into a inflation calculator and that's and impressive $198,000,000. Decent.

Let's return to the ICv2 figures.
The role-playing game industry was $15 million in 2013, when D&D wasn't releasing anything major. That's Pathfinder at its height (it's sales only decline meanwhile) and no other major retail challengers.
So the $10 million boost between 2013 and 2015 is pretty much D&D. (We can assuming it was 75% that in 2014, with six to sell 5e but the high selling core books.)
So a ballpark is $7.5M, 10, 20, 30, 40. For a total of $107,500,000. Which is probably *mostly* all D&D.

But, you say, that's less than $198M. True. But I'm not including any board games or other products in that. WotC probably makes an eff-tonne in licencing that wouldn't be included in the totals. Again, TSR sold a lot of other products.
And, this is key, even if the $198M was all D&D, it would be divided between AD&D and Basic.


So, is D&D making more money than it was in 1982? Adjusted for inflation, probably not. But it's probably pretty darn close.
Amusingly, it made comparable money in 2014 as 1979 and in 2015 and in 1980. But the spike of '81 and '82 level 2016-17 behind.

But... while D&D plateaued in 1982, 5e has continued to grow steadily in 2018. At this steady rate of growth, D&D passes TSR's money earned over the same period of years by 2021. And even if 5e slows, that still only delays things by a couple years. At this point, it's pretty much inevitable that 5e will make more total money, adjusted for inflation, than early 1980s TSR. All WotC has to do is not collapse and have a huge fight over management leading to bankruptcy.
And, again, that's all of TSR

Interestingly, the article linked above pegs the Basic Set's sales at 12,000 copies a month. Impressive. But still less than the 5e PHB's 15,000 per month... on Amazon alone.
So 5e's PHB has undoubtedly sold more copies than either the 1e PHB or the D&D Basic set. So while 5e cannot currently match the impressive sales spike of D&D Basic AND AD&D 1e combined, it more than exceeds sales of both individually.


I look forward to you continuing to ignore all this, and maintaining that D&D individually made $27 million in 1982 and how the 1e PHB outsold the current one.

Another point to consider about the number of people involved: WotC has given the number for 15 million active players now...in the U.S. and Canada. Folks on New Zealand, Argentina or the U.K. are on top of that.
 

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