D&D 4E 4e/3.X hybrid?

[sidonunspa]

So,

I was wondering, how many of you have thought about a 4e/3.Xe Hybrid system... I think that 4e has some good ideas (Efficiency of actions, monster design, encounter design, marshal maneuvers, consolidation of skills, and arcane implements) but in the end, they went too far...

I have been playing around with the idea of making this new system an open-design project (with a Wiki and all) working off the OGL.

So do you think there would be some interest?

 

[gnome-eater]

Hey Sidonunspa, you might want to check out the Pathfinder RPG that's being created by Paizo. It has a lot of solid changes to 3.5, and with a few houserules, I'm sure you could bring it as close to 4e as you would like. The free Alpha is available here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

A number of people have thought about it. There's a few problems though...

1. Not everyone agrees on what 4E does that's "cool" and what "sucks". This combines with the fact that not everyone has the same problems with 3.x.

2. You mention working off the OGL. Getting at the stuff you see in 4E (the mechanics that is) isn't exactly going to be easy. You can't combine 4E (GSL) stuff with 3.X (OGL) stuff. Well, you _might_ be able to in a strictly "fan"/ "homebrew"; but I wouldn't even be too sure about that. I do know that WotC said something about a fan policy in regards to the GSL announcement. So far they still haven't come up with the fan site policy yet though.

As for Pathfinder being a "midpoint" between 4E and 3E... from what I've seen, not really. It's primary goal is maintaining compatibility with 3.x. It also falls into this grey area of "fixing"/"not fixing" things. Some of the changes they've made, people really love. Other people feel it's basically 3.x with a new coat of paint and maybe some nice bits of molding added.

Depending on what your goal is, you'd probably be better off looking at Star Wars Saga Edition to be honest. A number of 4E elements were apparently first seen there.

There was also a book done a while back that basically looked to find as many of the OGL influences for the stuff seen in Star Wars Saga, and put it together for a "sword and sorcery" style fantasy game. You can buy the book here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/1444818

In general though, you're going to want to have a much more clearly defined goal than "a 4e/3.x hybrid". If you ask 10 people on the forums, "What makes D&D?" you'll get 14 answers and the beginning of a flamewar. Just wanting to combine aspects of the two system, everyone's going to have different goals and ideas.

If the idea is to have an "open design" project of some sort with freely useable rules... I'm honestly doubtful it's going to be possible. WotC is pretty firm in trying to keep their new 4E GSL stuff from being available in the same fashion as the OGL stuff is, and they've done their best to make sure that you can't use OGL/GSL stuff together.

 

[Clawhound]

Some things port back easily.

Gamist Attitude? Yes.
Skill challenges? Yes.
Parcels? Yes.
Minions? Yes.
Encounter Roles for Monsters? Yes.
Magic Item Levels? Already in the MIC

Others things don't port so well. XP Budgets for Multiple creatures don't work as well in 3.5 as in 4.0. The math is not quite there. Folks have backported these tables, but I think that the math/numbers don't quite work. However, I can be proven wrong here.

 

[sidonunspa]

When it comes to monster design and encounter design I was thinking about designing it from the ground up... even looking at the basic math behind the numbers.

In 4e there is VERY little that is 100% original rules content, (only one I can think of is the healing surge) if we want to use Saves as Defense, Weapon Groups, and Hero Points... We can, they are all OGL (see Unearthed Arcana) and I was able to find a lot of other 4e rules to other game systems (Look at the weapons in Warhammer Fantasy someday, they look a LOT like the way they are presented in 4e)

If I do this it will be 100% OGL, remember you can keep the spirit of a rule, just change the way the rules work... let’s say I like Fighter Exploits in 4e; I can create some based off Combat Rites from Arcana Evolved; now we have the same "feel" with a different mechanic. Let’s say I hate the idea of these powers being limited to once an encounter, So instead of a strict limitation, you give it a strain value that says "you can do it once per encounter without penalty... Do it more than once, it’s not going to be easy". Surprise, new rules, same feel... Mac & PC, both look a lot alike, and work a lot alike, but when you take a closer look, you know the rest.

I guess your right about coming up with a clearly defined goal, maybe a bullet-point mission statement.

Maybe I should just work up stuff and toss it up on my own WiKi and then see how many people want to get involved?

BTW I was looking at Pathfinder... VERY cool stuff, it may very well become my default 3.X rules set. I had a chance to talk to Jason at Origins about the project… hats off my friend, you are writing, typing mad man, and after out talk I REALY like where you are going with the game system. Can’t wait to get my hands on it.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

When it comes to monster design and encounter design I was thinking about designing it from the ground up... even looking at the basic math behind the numbers.

I ummmm... I hate to sound like some sort of negative jerk, but there has been some pretty good stuff done on monster math already...

Grim Tales Creature Creation:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=18836&it=1

This is basically a slightly cleaned up "v5" of work done by "Upper_Krust", and also includes a handy Excel sheet to help with doing the calculations. Wulf Ratbane used it with Upper_Krust's permission.

He's done a v6, but apparently hasn't released it yet. His hope is to put it out in August:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4312675&postcount=275
You could probably get the v5 document from him if you asked. In fact...
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237036

Now, for something a bit funky...

Adamant Entertainment put out a nifty enough product called "Foe Factory: Modern":
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=51080

The idea behind it is simple NPC generation. It's geared for the Modern system obviously. As I understand it, the rules behind NPC generation/handling from Spycraft were the inspiration. Anyway, while they said they were going to put out a fantasy version after 4E was released, I went ahead and picked up Foe Factory: Modern. I figured a bird in hand was worth two in the bush.

It's a slick little product and looks pretty useful overall. What struck me as I was going through it though, was that they use CR modifiers to buff up the opponents. And one of the opponents they've got listed in the back as an example?

Zombie.

And I thought, "You know what? I bet this would be a halfway decent way of making monsters that can scale along a range, and simplify out some of that stupid statblock crap too."

So I've actually been slowly working on converting over some SRD monsters. The Foe Factory takes care of their base stats and stuff, and then the Creature Creation from Grim Tales gives the CR Modifier. I haven't had a chance to test it out yet, but I'm hoping to do so soon.

You might consider talking to Upper_Krust and Wulf Ratbane (Wulf did Grim Tales), as they seem to be _the_ fellows in regards to math, encounters, and that sort of thing.

In 4e there is VERY little that is 100% original rules content, (only one I can think of is the healing surge) if we want to use Saves as Defense, Weapon Groups, and Hero Points... We can, they are all OGL (see Unearthed Arcana)

Oooooh, I'm not quite so sure about that. Like I said, from what I've seen SW Saga is a lot closer to 3.x than 4E is. And Fantasy Concepts s15? That sucker is _huge_. I don't have 4E, so I really don't know what the rules look like. But Jason went to a lot of work to make sure his Fantasy Concepts pulled strictly from clear OGL sources, and he went to a lot of books to come up with it. I'll take a look at it when I get home, and see how many books he's got listed there.

I could be completely off base, but I think it might not be quite as easy as you're making out. *shrug*

and I was able to find a lot of other 4e rules to other game systems (Look at the weapons in Warhammer Fantasy someday, they look a LOT like the way they are presented in 4e)

Random aside... Ryan Dancy did a review of 2nd Ed Warhammer Fantasy RPG that was... interesting...half a sec....
http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=1747

The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game shares many similar design goals to D&D 3rd Edition, and uses a "basket" of mechanics and mechanical design choices that are clearly influenced by the design of D&D 3rd Edition.

Perhaps things come full circle?

If I do this it will be 100% OGL, remember you can keep the spirit of a rule, just change the way the rules work... let’s say I like Fighter Exploits in 4e; I can create some based off Combat Rites from Arcana Evolved; now we have the same "feel" with a different mechanic. Let’s say I hate the idea of these powers being limited to once an encounter, So instead of a strict limitation, you give it a strain value that says "you can do it once per encounter without penalty... Do it more than once, it’s not going to be easy". Surprise, new rules, same feel... Mac & PC, both look a lot alike, and work a lot alike, but when you take a closer look, you know the rest.

Sounds interesting. Although from what I remember of the OGC declaration in Arcana Unearthed, there's an awful lot that Monte tried to lock down. You might have to do a fancy shuffle for some of those rule bits.

I guess your right about coming up with a clearly defined goal, maybe a bullet-point mission statement.

I think it'd probably help. Keeps "feature creep" down, provides a bit of direction for where you're really wanting to go, and helps inform folks as to whether it's something they're interested in or not.

Maybe I should just work up stuff and toss it up on my own WiKi and then see how many people want to get involved?

Maybe. Again, I kinda think it depends on what your goals are. I'll also note that there's folks that aren't wiki savvy and (for whatever reason) won't participate if that's the form of participation that's expected.

The other thing to consider as far as "participation" is concerned, is whom you're going to listen to in terms of suggestions/arguments/whatever.

For example, Paizo says they've had 25,000 unique downloads of their Pathfinder document. Groovy for them. They also note that "internet pundits" basically said they were wasting their time doing Pathfinder. Obviously, while the two aren't exactly mutually exclusive, there _is_ a discrepancy there. I'll note in passing that on the special features chunk of the first Ultimates dvd cartoon movie, Joe Quesada (running Marvel comics) mentioned how internet forums blasted Marvel up one side and down the other with what a lousy idea it was, how it would destroy Marvel, and so on. And it was Marvel's best selling series, far outperforming their hopes and expectations.

Ummm.... I'm not really making much of a point. Other than being wary of anyone's opinions, including of course mine. Heck, you might want to toss mine straight out, I think I'm counted as one of those dirty "casual gamers" that's apparently a blight on the hobby (certainly a blight on the industry).

BTW I was looking at Pathfinder... VERY cool stuff, it may very well become my default 3.X rules set. I had a chance to talk to Jason at Origins about the project… hats off my friend, you are writing, typing mad man, and after out talk I REALY like where you are going with the game system. Can’t wait to get my hands on it.

There's some nifty bits to it certainly. I happen to be in the camp of wishing they'd really tried pushing the envelope, and that Pathfinder is going to stay "too close" to core. But I'm still keeping half an eye on it anyway. Regardless, I wish 'em lots of luck and hope it works out for 'em.