4E and "Old School Gaming" (and why they aren't mutually exclusive"

[Betote]

To me, "old school" doesn't have so much to do with one or another spot rule as with the modules that made the old school: Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Tomb of Horrors...

If we believe what we have been said by the designers and the marketing guys at WotC, 4e was designed specifically to make those modules impossible to play as they were. Traps work on a totally different way because they found the previous ones (the ones that appear on them) broken, unfun and unfair, the feeling of "anytime now I could drop dead if I fail a saving throw" has been actively avoided. Even the maps would need to be redrawn because now they're "too small to 4e" (as Mike Mearls stated in an article about this specific topic).

So, if 4e feels old school, and it has been (or so we've been told) designed to achieve the exact opposite results, 4e is a failure.

 

[JeffB]

Oh, I know. And I never said you were. And I apologize if you felt like I was targeting you.

I'm just saying it goes on on both sides. And like you felt assailed, I felt lumped in by characterization.

No worries, you def are not lumped into that "vocal element" I spoke about.

Curious: when do you think it got hostile? Because I feel the trend has been towards less hostile over the last month. Could it be just a matter of perception fed by how many people you think agree with you?

What day was 4E announced?

I don't feel it's all that less "hostile" in the past month or so, though I must admit, I tend not to comb through all threads and forums. As for agreement- not that at all. I have no problems with disagreement. Some people genuinely want to discuss or understand or disagree in rational manne, some just peddle the same old bitter "you are wrong" BS argument over and over in each and every thread regardless of whether the post was warranted or not.

:Galdriel Voice: You know of whom I speak

 

[Psion]

Even the maps would need to be redrawn because now they're "too small to 4e" (as Mike Mearls stated in an article about this specific topic).

You wouldn't have a link handy for this article, would you?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

To me, the reason 4E feels "old school" is because it captures the same sort of feelings I had for the game when I first cracked open my AD&D PHB. Nostalgia, a general love for the rules, stuff like that. Even though they are two entirely separate set of rules, it just seems to bring out a feeling that I didn't really get with 3/3.5.

 

[Obryn]

If we believe what we have been said by the designers and the marketing guys at WotC, 4e was designed specifically to make those modules impossible to play as they were. Traps work on a totally different way because they found the previous ones (the ones that appear on them) broken, unfun and unfair, the feeling of "anytime now I could drop dead if I fail a saving throw" has been actively avoided. Even the maps would need to be redrawn because now they're "too small to 4e" (as Mike Mearls stated in an article about this specific topic).

Well, jeez. Someone better tell Mearls it's impossible for him to run his 4e Temple of Elemental Evil game, and remind him that he specifically designed the game to destroy the module he's running!

So, if 4e feels old school, and it has been (or so we've been told) designed to achieve the exact opposite results, 4e is a failure.

I think you, too, are falling into the assumption that there's only one definition or set of characteristics that define "old-school" play.

-O

 

[Betote]

You wouldn't have a link handy for this article, would you?

It's somewhere on wizards.com, so it's anything but handy

Looking for it, however, I found the column about trap design:

Design & Development: Traps!

Also, thanks to another poster, I've found that Mearls has started running a "ToEE" campaign. If you look at his blog on Gleemax, you can see how many changes he felt necessary to make in order to adapt it to 4e. Saying it's "loosely based" is an euphemism if I ever saw one.

----

EDIT: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070827a for how Mearls states how much "dundeoncrafting" has to change because of the shift of gameplay made by 4e.

And a little history, to see what one of the lead designers of 4e feels about one of the defining modules of "old school": http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html

 

[Korgoth]

To me, "old school" doesn't have so much to do with one or another spot rule as with the modules that made the old school: Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Tomb of Horrors...

If we believe what we have been said by the designers and the marketing guys at WotC, 4e was designed specifically to make those modules impossible to play as they were. Traps work on a totally different way because they found the previous ones (the ones that appear on them) broken, unfun and unfair, the feeling of "anytime now I could drop dead if I fail a saving throw" has been actively avoided. Even the maps would need to be redrawn because now they're "too small to 4e" (as Mike Mearls stated in an article about this specific topic).

So, if 4e feels old school, and it has been (or so we've been told) designed to achieve the exact opposite results, 4e is a failure.

So 4E was specifically designed to destroy everything that made D&D the most popular role playing game in the world, at the height of its success and popularity?

Wow... according to you 4E is a million times worse than I thought.

 

[Betote]

Well, jeez. Someone better tell Mearls it's impossible for him to run his 4e Temple of Elemental Evil game, and remind him that he specifically designed the game to destroy the module he's running!

Well, having a look at his notes (as they're posted on his Gleemax blog-thing) I don't think "his" ToEE is similar in anything else that in name to the T1-4 module.

I think you, too, are falling into the assumption that there's only one definition or set of characteristics that define "old-school" play.

Damn, and I thought I hadn't forgotten to start my post with "To me". Oh, wait...

 

[Betote]

So 4E was specifically designed to destroy everything that made D&D the most popular role playing game in the world, at the height of its success and popularity?

Wow... according to you 4E is a million times worse than I thought.

Let me emphasize the tense you used: "made". It's been more than 20 years since then, so it's a smart move to move on and focus on what could make D&D a popular game *now*.

Saying that 4e, by design, isn't anywhere near "old school" isn't the same as saying that 4e is a bad game. Not because of that, anyway In fact, I'm very happy that they wanted to start anew, because now I have more different "flavors" of D&D from where to choose.

And 4e isn't destroying anything, as far as I know. 1e books and retro-clones are still there for the ones who want to play the game as it was 20+ years ago

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Complicating this even further were the differences between games in which people played "Old School" D&D as written, and those who played in a looser more narrative style.