Hairfoot
First Post
Can you direct me to that discussion? It's very relevant to a dungeon I'm working on.
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4E and "Old School Gaming" (and why they aren't mutually exclusive"
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
Can you direct me to that discussion? It's very relevant to a dungeon I'm working on.
I believe you can play any game in old school style. I believe you can play old school games in styles that are not old school. I believe I have done both.
But, it works better if the game and the style match.
If you want to play 4e in old school style, I think you have to first understand old school style. My suggestion would be to read the following and then play some sessions using a bona fide old school game.
But, it works better if the game and the style match.
If you want to play 4e in old school style, I think you have to first understand old school style. My suggestion would be to read the following and then play some sessions using a bona fide old school game.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Thats a very good idea. It would be a great test to see if 4E feels like an old school game for a particular group.
As an experiment, run an adventure with an old school system as close to RAW as possible.
Then run an adventure of the same level of a similar type in 4E .
Take notes and compare. Whatever the conclusion it will be the "truth" for that particular group and thats what matters.
buzz
Adventurer
Dag! Beat me to it.
I think the key to this discussion is defining what one means by Old School. Is it a general attitude towards the DM-player relationship, or the player-character relationship (e.g., what justanobody believes PCs should "know" about their own abilities)... or is it literally making the game work mechanically like OD&D/1e/BECMI/whatever?
I honestly don't think there's a heck of a lot going on mechanically in 4e that would prevent running it with an Old School attitude. As Henry mentions in the thread Psion linked to above, there are aspects of 4e that are, at least superficially, very 1e-like. Really, ditch Skill Challenges and you've got your basic crawl-through-dungeons, DM-adjudicates-anything-non-combat Old School game. I.e., I don't think there's much you need to add to 4e, just aspects to subtract.
That said, 4e is certainly more overtly tactical than early D&D, so if you don't like that, well, you can get all the previous editions in PDF from DriveThruRPG.
Fifth Element
Legend
If you're referring to a relatively recent SoD discussion that I was part of, I think a more fair characterization of the discussion is this:
Some people: "We don't find SoD fun. We explain why."
A certain other poster (not you): "If you don't like SoD, it's because you're doing it wrong."
There may have been some anti-SoD poster who belittled those who enjoyed SoD, I don't recall. But pages were filled disputing the certain poster's claim (not you) that only people who play the game wrong dislike SoD.
Monday
If you're interested, you can visit this thread, which describes my 4E campaign... adventuring through Gary Gygax's "Castle Zagyg" adapted for the system from C&C.
Interesting comment by one of those reading the account: "The players drive the plot, the plot shouldn't drive the players - that's old-school gaming at it's best!"...
Cheers!
If you're interested, you can visit this thread, which describes my 4E campaign... adventuring through Gary Gygax's "Castle Zagyg" adapted for the system from C&C.
Interesting comment by one of those reading the account: "The players drive the plot, the plot shouldn't drive the players - that's old-school gaming at it's best!"...
Cheers!
buzz
Adventurer
I thought that was New Dirty Hippie Indie School.
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
I thought that was New Dirty Hippie Indie School.
Almost: the difference in old-school is that the players drive the plot, but the GM reacts by not pulling punches and just killing off characters on a regular basis. It's the surviving characters the determine the plot, and you only know what it was in retrospect.
--Steve
I think that "old school" is a completely subjective label. Everyone has different experiences in playing D&D, and it's foolish to claim that there is anything resembling a monolithic expression of the game. From the kids playing tiefling warlocks today to the guys who 34 years ago threw 3d6 in order and chose from fighting man, cleric, and magic-user, the entire point of D&D is that the DM and the players make of the game what they will.
I've been running a number of classic modules in 4e, and am currently working on converting the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. It's been a lot of fun, and it feels old school. On the other hand, I had no compunction about using kenku servants of Iuz in the moathouse, or adding in a summoned demon in the water pool chamber, or replacing Lareth with his agent, a doppelganger who had disguised himself as Burne.
(Lareth and Obmi long since fled for the temple; I did keep Lubash, though. He even kicked in part of a wall as he made his entrance after the green slime at the base of the stairs dropped on the party.)
To me, this is all old school stuff, and my players and I are loving it. I'm sure that, to someone else, messing around with the specifics of the monsters or encounters is some sort of sacrilege to Gary's original work. That doesn't bother me. To me, it doesn't get any more old school than twisting, folding, remolding, and reworking stuff as a DM and gaming group see fit. If anything, mindlessly clinging to classic material as if they are sacred, unalterable texts, goes against everything that AD&D and OD&D have taught me.
I think that, for me, "old school" means:
1. Player choice drives the game.
1a. Really bad player choices lead to TPKs.
1b. Really clever player choices lead to rewards and advantages beyond the norm.
2. There are strains of an almost Lovecraftian incomprehensibility to many gods and demons, a la the chaos temple in Keep on the Borderlands.
3. The forces of evil gather on all sides of the Realms of Man.
That's pretty much it, to me. Rule 1 and its sub-rules are the critical parts of it. Quick, creative thinking is key. Mindlessly attacking is a fool's gambit.
I've been running a number of classic modules in 4e, and am currently working on converting the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. It's been a lot of fun, and it feels old school. On the other hand, I had no compunction about using kenku servants of Iuz in the moathouse, or adding in a summoned demon in the water pool chamber, or replacing Lareth with his agent, a doppelganger who had disguised himself as Burne.
(Lareth and Obmi long since fled for the temple; I did keep Lubash, though. He even kicked in part of a wall as he made his entrance after the green slime at the base of the stairs dropped on the party.)
To me, this is all old school stuff, and my players and I are loving it. I'm sure that, to someone else, messing around with the specifics of the monsters or encounters is some sort of sacrilege to Gary's original work. That doesn't bother me. To me, it doesn't get any more old school than twisting, folding, remolding, and reworking stuff as a DM and gaming group see fit. If anything, mindlessly clinging to classic material as if they are sacred, unalterable texts, goes against everything that AD&D and OD&D have taught me.
I think that, for me, "old school" means:
1. Player choice drives the game.
1a. Really bad player choices lead to TPKs.
1b. Really clever player choices lead to rewards and advantages beyond the norm.
2. There are strains of an almost Lovecraftian incomprehensibility to many gods and demons, a la the chaos temple in Keep on the Borderlands.
3. The forces of evil gather on all sides of the Realms of Man.
That's pretty much it, to me. Rule 1 and its sub-rules are the critical parts of it. Quick, creative thinking is key. Mindlessly attacking is a fool's gambit.
ExploderWizard
Hero
As far as changing the specifics of encounters goes I do believe most old school modules encourage the DM to make the adventure thier own and to flavor it to suit the individual campaign. It sounds like you are doing exactly that. So in a way you ARE being true to those old ways by obeying those instructions.
