D&D 4E 4e and reality

Actually, it's the game with the three minute character generation system where you can actually die during chargen. Chargen in the most recent version can take 15 minutes or more, but you can't die during it. The planetary generation system takes about as long as the chargen system, and doesn't really have more than a broad overview with a half a dozen or so things like population, atmosphere type, and so forth generated.

AbdulAlhazred is incorrect, though, about the rules having been unchanged for over 30 years. There've been a number of versions, many of which have significantly different rule sets. It is, I guess, on the light end of the scale, coming in at about the same level as white box D&D in its original incarnation, and BECMI in the current iteration. Whether you call that rules-light or not depends on what you take as a baseline. It's certainly less rules-intensive than D&D 3.5 or even 4E.

Hmmmm. I was basing this off of the 4th edition Traveler hardcover that is out currently. I didn't buy the book but skimming through it in the store I was struck by the fact that the rules appear to be lifted verbatim from the original 3 book 1st edition. Admittedly there may be a very few minor differences in the career tables, but nothing that jumped out at me. Maybe you can't die in CG anymore I suppose but the system is VERY VERY close to the original and all the core rules appear to be literally word-for-word identical. Comparing it to D&D it would be as if the original 3 book set had been re-typeset into a single hardcover book with only very slight cosmetic changes.
As to it being favorable to simulationist-types (I refuse to say a game is simulationist, since it really depends on group), it bends slightly fewer things away from reality than early D&D in favor of game play. I think this is as much a function of the type of literature that inspired it as any intent on the part of Marc Miller & co., though. Rather than the scattering of fantasy sources across subgenres from sword & sorcery to dying earth fantasy, to high fantasy, it's squarely based on the science fiction trends of the 1950s-60s, where keeping pace with science was an important part of SF, and the heroism had to work around real scientific constraints. If it had thrown out a broader net, including Sword & Planet stuff, or Space Fantasy such as Star Wars, its apparent "simulationism" would be far less.

Eh, I don't really agree. It is VERY simulationist in many fundamental respects. Getting shot or stabbed is a very bad thing and if not immediately fatal is certainly a serious problem. Chances are most healthy characters will survive a pistol shot or two and there is no critical hit/instant death type mechanic, but the damage output of all but the least powerful weapons is usually enough to produce at least instantly disabling wounds.

Beyond that the combat system doesn't get into a huge amount of gritty detail as far as hand-to-hand fighting goes since it generally envisages most combat employing projectile or even energy weapons. There are rules for parrying, thrown weapons, grenades, and even heavy artillery-type weapons. All of them seem to produce pretty realistic results and unlike most combat systems a gun isn't especially doing more damage than a sword, it is just better because you can kill someone from 100 meters.

The skill system is very simple but actually works really well. It is mostly a 'flat' open-ended list of skills but there is a little bit of stacking when it comes to weapons, allowing for instance a good knowledge of firearms to apply broadly to most weapons of that sort with more specific expertise being available as well.

I agree though that the system is an odd one by today's standards in that it simply doesn't bother to address some things that are major aspects of most games. For instance there are NO rules for acquiring new skills or any other form of mechanical character advancement. There are some guidelines the referee can use to allow a character to study a new skill but they have no actual mechanics attached to them. There is a psionics system that allows for advancement in mental disciplines but it is kind of hard to apply any kind of 'realism' to that and it was always intended to be an optional system that the ref might throw in if desired. Very few characters would actually have access to psionics in a standard campaign.

It is an interesting game in that it is pretty well balanced, you don't end up with useless or overpowered characters yet it makes pretty much zero concessions to gamist considerations. Admittedly it was designed for playing 50's style space opera sort of games. Still, I think it would handle a wide variety of genre that usually employ GURPS, d20 modern, or BRP (CoC mainly). Not surprising that both GURPS and d20 modern have fairly popular Traveler ports. I don't think you could build a heroic fantasy game based on the system but I think you COULD do Star Wars or a lot of other stuff with it.

Anyway, the original point stands, it is quite possible to build a simple and yet highly simulationist system. You just have to accept that with such a system the rules of the real world are going to be paramount. You would DEFINITELY not be grabbing a swarm in Traveler, but neither do you have one-trick-pony characters nor would anyone playing the game have any expectations that it would be otherwise.
 

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First Post
uh, ok?

I don't recall claiming that dnd was particularly simulationist.
I do think that, no matter how many gamist elements and fluff inconsistencies you find in the previous editions, those added in 4e still make it less simulationist (and just because you're willing to accept a certain level of quirkiness doesn't mean you want more of it) but that wasn't really my point.

Personally I feel the game started as pretty far removed from simulationism, and only recently moved in that direction. I actually think 4e swings it back closer to where it started, but still not as far away from simulationist as it was back in the day.

That's my opinion at least.
 

Personally I feel the game started as pretty far removed from simulationism, and only recently moved in that direction. I actually think 4e swings it back closer to where it started, but still not as far away from simulationist as it was back in the day.

That's my opinion at least.

Eh, I think it is hard to say that OD&D was or wasn't simulationist. Given that there were no other RPGs around at the time it was the most gamist and the most simulationist system in existence at the time ;)

I think at heart it WAS somewhat simulationist though. Remember, it was built out of a wargame, which was aimed at providing rules that allowed you to simulate a battle. TT wargames were definitely on the far simulationist end of gaming in general, being practically unplayable without a huge amount of preparation, space, and time. They certainly made no concerted attempt at playability beyond the very bare minimum. I think OD&D started out conceiving of itself as being as realistic a game as was feasible at the time. Obviously with any game there will trade offs and OD&D was quite playable (maybe more so than any later edition).

Looking at the 'classic' type of D&D spells you also see that there was a lot of simulationism involved. One of my favorite examples is the Spider Climb spell, which made the target's hands sticky so he could climb walls like a spider. The spell actually has rules in it that detail what happens if you cast it on someone (they can't cast spells anymore for the duration because their hands are too sticky to handle components, etc). A LARGE portion of the standard wizardly tactics in AD&D/OD&D revolved around standard interpretations of the results of various spell effects (casting Rock to Mud in order to make people sink into the ground for instance).

So, I would say D&D progressed in a more and more detailed simulationist direction from OD&D to 3.5. 4e has veered into totally new territory with its explicitly gamist agenda and such. I don't think that is going back in the direction of the original game, I think it is going in a totally new direction. That being said it hasn't gone as far as many people would like us to believe.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I think maybe people are missing the point. You can have both a sense of a coherent world that works by rules AND all the craziness you want.
I disagree that you can have both. The problem is that an effort on creating a coherent world creates an opening for breaking the rules and causing large imbalances.

After all, if there is a spell in the game that turns rock to mud and it affects 500 square feet of rock, it makes perfect sense to allow this spell to bury 10 enemies at once so deep in mud that they can't breathe and they all die(if they were all standing on rock). On the other hand, game balance is hurt by allowing it. It means that the spell, which was often balanced against similar spells of its level because the designers were thinking of it in terms of non-combat uses, is now often the best choice at it's level by far.

It also means that this spells has far exceeded what other people in the group can accomplish. Why ask the fighter to attack on enemy with a sword for 20 damage when you can do 500 points of damage to 10 different creatures with one spell?

So you are left with a decision: Disallow the use of the spell to immediately kill enemies, even if means the believability of the story is slightly hurt. Or you can allow it and cause an imbalance between spells of the same level and between characters(which can cause hurt feelings/boredom in some players).

This isn't about putting a hammer down on this that or the other character for arbitrary reasons. This is about being able to portray a living world with depth and some degree of consistency that isn't based in game rules but in how the WORLD works
The thing is when you try to separate how the world works from how the rules work you cause a problem. That's when you get into the gap where you need to make a choice: Rules or World. I know which one you'd choose and I'm glad that you appear to have players who agree with that decision. But not all players do. And often DMs don't know whether their players agree or disagree since most D&D tables have created a social contract where if you disagree with the DM, you aren't allowed to say anything.

Besides, there is consistency in the way powers work in 4e. You can grab anything with a power that says "the target is grabbed", it's extremely consistent. In fact, it's the other way around that creates the inconsistency. Devotion to "World" first tends to cause situations like "You can grab someone, unless they are a swarm, or insubstantial, or have phasing, or I determine that they are mostly made of non-solid materials(like fire, air, or water elementals), or they are too slippery, or they have non-grabby magic, and so on". Which is to say, your powers as a player get translated into "You can use these when the DM says it's ok."

To me, a game is fun when I can contribute fairly equally to the rest of the group. To this end, assume a game has powers like:

1) do about 5 damage
2) do about 5 damage
3) do about 4 damage and move the enemy a square
4) do about 3 damage and root the monster to the spot so they can't move

These are fairly balanced. Each of the 4 players in question would probably feel they were equally adding to a battle.

Now, all you have to do is add a little bit of extra information to those powers and start using "logic" in the game to completely imbalance it:

1) do about 5 fire damage(which means 0 against creatures who live in fire, rock creatures which can't be burned, and so on)
2) do about 5 damage by blowing the creature against a nearby surface with the power of wind(which means it doesn't work on anything that can't be moved, or when there is no nearby surfaces)
3) do about 4 damage and move the enemy a square by moving the ground under their feet(which means it doesn't work against flying creatures or creatures standing on artificial floors)
4) do about 3 damage and root the monster to the spot so they can't move by freezing their feet to the floor(doesn't work against creatures who don't have feet, aren't on the floor, or creatures strong enough to break out of the ice without missing a stride)

And then it becomes a roulette game in each encounter to see which player will not be able to use their powers for the next hour and need to watch the game instead of playing it.

The thing is, a world where people can grab swarms, hurt fire elementals with fire spells, and freeze birds to the air around them isn't less consistent and it doesn't have any less depth. It's simply not the real world. As long as all heroes in the world can grab swarms, it's completely consistent. It's just not exactly the same as the real world. i.e. it isn't "realistic".

If I want rules that are rigidly adhered to no matter how lame the story turns out as a result I can boot up pretty much any old CRPG or go play WoW. This is D&D, the whole point is that world is brought to life around you. Any argument that misses that is missing the whole point of TT RPGs.
I think you are drawing way too simplistic a difference between CRPGs and D&D. I don't miss the point of them at all. I like playing a game with my friends around a real table. I like the fact that the DM is there to adjudicate my actions when I try something the rules don't cover. I like that when I try to climb to the second floor window I'm not faced with the problem that there is no climb button. I like when I talk to NPCs they don't repeat the same wall of text each and every time. I can ask them questions and get intelligent answers. I like that the monster can anticipate our tactics and change its own accordingly. I like that I don't have to repeat the same 10 quests over and over because I have a DM making up new ones each week for us. I like that the quests can be more directly applicable to our characters since they aren't created to appeal to millions of people at the same time. I like that I can ask for clarification on what things look like or what my character knows about the history and background of things and get an answer.

That stuff all makes D&D different from WoW. And none of it requires me to add a gap between the rules and the game world. It's also assuming that following the rules suddenly causes a "lame story". I find some of the best stories happened BECAUSE we followed the rules. The fighter who grabs the swarm and slams it against the wall makes for a pretty awesome story. The fact that we can adventure in an entirely fire-based environment and not worry if one of the players is going to feel left out because he has all fire based powers makes for a better story than having to make it more generic so all the players have fun.
 

eamon

Explorer
I disagree that you can have both. The problem is that an effort on creating a coherent world creates an opening for breaking the rules and causing large imbalances.

After all, if there is a spell in the game that turns rock to mud and it affects 500 square feet of rock, it makes perfect sense to allow this spell to bury 10 enemies at once so deep in mud that they can't breathe and they all die(if they were all standing on rock). On the other hand, game balance is hurt by allowing it. It means that the spell, which was often balanced against similar spells of its level because the designers were thinking of it in terms of non-combat uses, is now often the best choice at it's level by far.

To some extent, this is inevitable, and part of the fun of the game. Sometimes entire encounters can be won before they even start just by saying the right thing to the right person - is that "overpowered"? Or, if you push someone off a cliff into a pit of lava - that's a one-shot kill, even for a solo (though with reduced chance). Sometimes, some choices simply will have an abnormally impact.

But that's not to say it's a good thing all the time. So, isn't the easy solution to just not permit those kind of things? You can have a consistent world-view without the spell mud-to-rock, so, in the name of balance, why not just leave the spell out? Or, in 4e style, make it a ritual that takes too long to be of use in any combat.

It also means that this spells has far exceeded what other people in the group can accomplish. Why ask the fighter to attack on enemy with a sword for 20 damage when you can do 500 points of damage to 10 different creatures with one spell?

I guess if being "simulationist" means deciding on abilities purely on grounds of what sounds appropriate on a fantasy setting and seeing where it leads with no regard to the balance of the result, then clearly that's something that only possible at the cost of balance.

But we can design a world and game with the consequences in mind, and decide beforehand that some abilities are incompatible with balance and should not be included. In a sense, there's quite a few realistic things that are removed from D&D in quite that fashion.

After all, creatures can survive multiple sword-blows and a coup-de-grace may leave no lasting mark. That doesn't sound realistic. But it doesn't have to be, as long as it's consistent (in game). So, in 4e, a sword-blow is usually just a flesh-wound or a merely a jarring, exhausting shock to your armor, not particularly dangerous. All such "wounds" are like that, and that makes it fine by me.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if a 4e PC can jump "realistically" far, what matters is that the distance that can be jumped in determined in the same fashion when in the same circumstances; and that better jumpers jump further, particularly poor circumstance may decrease distance, etc. It's the relative balance that matters.

So you are left with a decision: Disallow the use of the spell to immediately kill enemies, even if means the believability of the story is slightly hurt. Or you can allow it and cause an imbalance between spells of the same level and between characters(which can cause hurt feelings/boredom in some players).
Get rid of the spell! I don't think it harms believability at all, and it definitely helps balance.


Besides, there is consistency in the way powers work in 4e. You can grab anything with a power that says "the target is grabbed", it's extremely consistent.
You're talking about an entirely different concept here, however. This consistency you talk of is at a meta-game level. At that level, consistency has lots of value in that it makes the rules simple, and no value in making the in-game world make sense.

Ideally, we'd have both kinds of simplicity, of course.

In fact, it's the other way around that creates the inconsistency. Devotion to "World" first tends to cause situations like "You can grab someone, unless they are a swarm, or insubstantial, or have phasing, or I determine that they are mostly made of non-solid materials(like fire, air, or water elementals), or they are too slippery, or they have non-grabby magic, and so on". Which is to say, your powers as a player get translated into "You can use these when the DM says it's ok."
Right, so you're talking about keeping the rules for different situations similar. That's a worthwhile aim, but this kind of meta-game consistency has entirely different benefits. I agree that for the sake of simplicity, this kind of simplicity should generally outweigh in-game consistency for any minor details.

This is the core of exception-based design. You add a rule whenever you feel it's necessary to create a more detailed representation of the game; that could be for reasons of inherent verisimilitude or rules to keep the relative balance and tactics of the game functioning.

The fewer rules the better; at what point it's worth it to add an exception for reasons of in-game consistency is a trade-off.

But that trade-off isn't quite that simple. A rule could be particularly poor and removing it (enhancing meta-game consistency i.e. simplicity) also enhances in-game consistency. Critically (to me) this isn't a zero-sum game, choosing poorly here can mean both poor in-game consistency and poor excessive meta-game complexity.

D&D is not at all at the simple side of this spectrum. We're talking about a game with a bunch of rules. Lots of them. And many are clearly inspired by a kind of verisimilitude. Distances are measured in squares but have meaning in real-life measurements, and speeds for PC's are vaguely reasonable. There's lots of talk about improvisation and skill checks and DC's for things that don't have a good meta-game representation and yet are still possible options. This isn't a board game with a fixed number of legal moves.

To me, a game is fun when I can contribute fairly equally to the rest of the group. To this end, assume a game has powers like:

1) do about 5 damage
2) do about 5 damage
3) do about 4 damage and move the enemy a square
4) do about 3 damage and root the monster to the spot so they can't move

These are fairly balanced. Each of the 4 players in question would probably feel they were equally adding to a battle.

Now, all you have to do is add a little bit of extra information to those powers and start using "logic" in the game to completely imbalance it:

1) do about 5 fire damage(which means 0 against creatures who live in fire, rock creatures which can't be burned, and so on)
2) do about 5 damage by blowing the creature against a nearby surface with the power of wind(which means it doesn't work on anything that can't be moved, or when there is no nearby surfaces)
3) do about 4 damage and move the enemy a square by moving the ground under their feet(which means it doesn't work against flying creatures or creatures standing on artificial floors)
4) do about 3 damage and root the monster to the spot so they can't move by freezing their feet to the floor(doesn't work against creatures who don't have feet, aren't on the floor, or creatures strong enough to break out of the ice without missing a stride)

And then it becomes a roulette game in each encounter to see which player will not be able to use their powers for the next hour and need to watch the game instead of playing it.

It's interesting you use this example, because the game does this to some extent. D&D has a concept of typed damage; that's not really necessary and could be removed. D&D has the concept of resistances and immunity to effects. Some immunities are motivated by source (immune to charms, say) and others by consequence (immune to forced movement, say). Different keywords work differently here too.

On the one hand that's a roulette - and on the other hand it can be a source of tactical fun.

Where do you draw the line?

So, we have three flavors of consistency:

  • Realism: necessary to some extent to empathize with the PC's, but non-critical. D&D PC's and NPC's are similar to us because this isn't way-out-there sci-fi. That's a different game. On the other hand, when the game uses terminology and concepts that mirror the real world, it's just confusing to get them wrong. The game shouldn't try to copy the real world, but where it copies the real world, it should try to retain common sense.
  • In-game consistency: this is necessary to keep things believable. Since the PC's may and are encouraged to try novel approaches to a problem, it's also crucial to keep the game flowing smoothly and not degrading into a (from the player's perspective) incomprehensible collection of DM fiats. Ideally, the players should be able to predict what the DM will rule before he does so, particularly where there aren't any rules to help you. It's better to completely outlaw an ability than to apply it inconsistently, here.
  • Meta-game consistency:i.e. fewer exceptions and simpler gameplay. This is critical to an extent, after all, the game must remain playable. But not all sorts of complexity are created equal. For instance, it's much more acceptable to have exceptions that apply only to particular PC's (e.g. feats, powers) or only in situations that are easy to look up (e.g. rules for flanking large creatures).
I'm convinced that it matters how you balance those three aspects; and that it's not a lost cause.

So, I'm particularly critical of general rules that matter little (that's a waste of rule-space), or that could have been rephrased to be PC-specific (included in a class or feat). Also, I'm much more in favor of the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance than to mere equality(which strikes me as boring).

So, it doesn't bother me much if a rule change makes PC's less equal so long as you can keep em balanced overall. Honestly, I think that PC imbalances are much more due to poor class design and poor player choices that due to the fact that some monsters are particularly resistant or immune to a particular PC's preferred means of attack. In fact, I like that. It reduces grind!

Adding rules has a cost. Perhaps adding facing rules would help believability, but at what cost? But there are areas where we can improve in-game consistency and perhaps even realism without adding new rules, or even with fewer rules than current RAW.

In particular for distinctions the game already makes (such as having special rules for swarms) we might as well make them work. A sign of a good rule is if it's similar to what the player expected before he's heard of the rule. Given the fact that a swarm is "special" and has special rules at all: swarms getting less damage from melee attacks and more from area attacks? That's good, people expect that intuitively. Being immune specifically to forced movement by melee and ranged attacks is more along the lines of WTFBBQ. It's oddly specific and entirely unexpected. Not a good rule.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
So, I'm particularly critical of general rules that matter little (that's a waste of rule-space), or that could have been rephrased to be PC-specific (included in a class or feat). Also, I'm much more in favor of the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance than to mere equality(which strikes me as boring).
I think this is the key point. I agree with pretty much everything you say except that I don't think there should ever be an all or nothing choice.

It's bad encounter design to have a pit of lava that immediately kills whoever touches it. If it does a reasonable amount of damage that isn't significantly more than the powers the PCs have, it's ok.

There shouldn't be creatures immune to anything unless the thing they are immune to is so rare as to barely effect anyone. There should be a resistance or interesting effect for using something on a creature. And the resistance or effect needs to be small enough to make something harder without making it overwhelming. I like the idea that if your entire party does fire damage than an encounter that is normally level 15 becomes level 16 or 17 in approximate difficulty. I dislike the idea that because of character choices that the combat becomes a near guaranteed TPK. I also dislike the other way around, where due to character "creativity" or choices that they can turn a difficult combat into an immediate win.

I don't consider a combat that you can "win" by saying the right thing an actual combat. I consider it a skill challenge that happens to coincide with a possible combat. The PCs get XP for the skill challenge OR from the combat, not both. If I've written something up to be a combat, it's because whatever they are fighting is not able to be reasoned with. In which case, I want it to be a challenge. Which means it isn't won too easily by either side.

Really, this should apply to almost any player choice. Whether made before the game as part of character creation, magic items you pick up, or decisions made on the fly during battle. Your effectiveness shouldn't change more than 30% in either direction.

This is the reason I hated restrictions like "no sneak attacks on undead" and various immunities; because often, they were reducing your damage by 50-100%.

4e is closer to my ideals, but it isn't perfect. There's still too many immunities in the game. And I just don't like the idea of people adding more immunities for the sake of "realism".

Given the fact that a swarm is "special" and has special rules at all: swarms getting less damage from melee attacks and more from area attacks? That's good, people expect that intuitively. Being immune specifically to forced movement by melee and ranged attacks is more along the lines of WTFBBQ. It's oddly specific and entirely unexpected. Not a good rule.
I'm not sure this is true. I know that we recently fought a swarm in D&D Encounters and there were a LOT of new players there. Not a single one of them had any inkling that the swarm took less damage from melee or ranged attacks. And the DM didn't describe any difference in our attacks from melee and AoE. So, the only reason the new players figured it out is that I told them. Mainly because we were losing so badly and the one person in the group who had AoE attacks was using them on the non-swarm targets.

Also, somewhat related, I was playing a Brawler Fighter and was attempting to grab the swarm in the same combat. Our DM at the time ruled that it could be grabbed but because it was a swarm it was allowed to leave the grab at any time without rolling or spending an action. Which somewhat relegated me to a second string character for the combat(since the nasty enemy was the swarm and I was attempting to do the defender thing and keep it away from the rest of the party by holding it in place).

I think that the fact that the character was already taking half damage from all my attacks was bad enough, there didn't need to be any MORE restrictions on my character. Especially considering both my utility power and one of my encounter powers said "Target: One grabbed creature". Also, my daily required I grab a creature and move it. He wasn't allowing me to move the swarm either. It reduced my character entirely to basic attacks(since the benefit of my at-wills were both useless against a single swarm and the other enemies were out of range).
 



pemerton

Legend
Hang on though. Aren't simulation games almost universally rules heavy?

<snip>

Can you point me in the direction of a rules light simulationist game?
Ron Edwards suggets Fudge as an example.

I think I agree with you that Traveller is not all that rules light, although it's lighter than 3E or Rolemaster.

Runequest is another purist-for-system simulationist game that's about as light as Traveller.
 

pemerton

Legend
You can have both a sense of a coherent world that works by rules AND all the craziness you want. This isn't about putting a hammer down on this that or the other character for arbitrary reasons. This is about being able to portray a living world with depth and some degree of consistency that isn't based in game rules but in how the WORLD works, which is the province of the DM.
I don't see why it's not also the province of the players - especially in a game that emphasises player control over PC build to the extent that 4e dos.

Rules will ALWAYS be secondary in that equation. They are a convenience.

<snip>

If I want rules that are rigidly adhered to no matter how lame the story turns out as a result I can boot up pretty much any old CRPG or go play WoW. This is D&D, the whole point is that world is brought to life around you. Any argument that misses that is missing the whole point of TT RPGs.
I disagree with this. If playing the game by the rules doesn't produce a good game with a strong story then something is wrong with the rules. (For example, maybe they are overly simulationist relative to the story desires of those at the table, or perhaps not simulationist enough relative to the desires of those at the table to have no game/metagame distinction.)

And this is quite tangential to the role of the GM, at least in my view. In standard D&D play the GM's role is to provide adversity for the PCs - run NPCs and monsters, handle the backstory, etc. In doing this the GM has to exercise a sort of discretion that is not part of a CRPG. But I don't see that this has anything to do with suspending the rules.

Here is an interesting blog on this by Vincent Baker that I was reading recently.

my experiences with 4e are, while it may occasionally takes heroic feats of exposition to make the various powers make narrative sense, for the most part the relationship between the game world and the characters powers, between the rules and the fiction are fairly stable. The inconsistencies which do crop up in no way undermines the believability of our campaign, such as it is.
This fits with my experience too.
 

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