"4E, as an anti-4E guy" (Session Two)

[Jeff Wilder]

I only have a few observations about this session.

First, we finally talked our roommate, Vonnie, into playing D&D with us again, after she fell into the yawning chasm of MMORPGs a couple of years ago. She plays endless hours of City of Heroes, City of Villains, Age of Conan, and now World of Warcraft.

While helping her download the Character Building and start building, she volunteered, "Oh, this is just like WoW." Completely unprompted, uncoached, un-anythinged. "Just like WoW." Well okay.

She ended up building a swordmage and enjoying herself. (Though, due to a mix-up in our starting and ending time, she had to quit a little early for a "WoW raid," whatever that means.)

The second observation is that my hatred of 1-1-1 movement, if anything, is glowing hotter. Twice during the session I moved to place myself closest to an enemy. Looking at the map, ignoring the grid and just making spatial judgment, there's absolutely no doubt that I'm in the position I want.

But then you count the squares, and I'm not. ARGH!

Any time savings from not having to count diagonals differently is absolutely wasted in having to count from final intended position to enemy positions. Forget about judging distances on the map. In situations in which it matters, you must count: from X1 to X2; from X2 to Y; from X2 to Z; oops, X2 is closer to Z, so let's start over; from X1 to X3, from X3 to Y; from X3 to Z, oh, okay, there we go.

Stupid, stupid, stupid rules change. It would have been far better to go to hexes.

Anyway, slightly less fun this time (call it 6 out of 10), but I don't really think it was 4E's fault that the fun level diminished. (Except for the 1-1-1 thing, which frustrates most of us.) We had a player sitting in for an absent player, and though a nice guy, he decided to play the gnome bard like a hyperactive weasel from an old cartoon. He's also a little, ah, overly assertive when it comes to telling other people what to do, out of character.

The DM, though he had us cracking up with his (excellent) impression of an emo goth ranger girl (apparently a minor villain), also (of course) broke through the fourth wall by continuing with it throughout the encounter.

We leveled up to 2nd. I took Yield Ground and Distant Advantage for my ranger.

It's gonna be a month until the third session.

 

[avin]

"Wow Raid" is when a group of 10 to 25 men go to a dungeon harder than the usual "5 mans".

Most Wow instances (dungeons) are designed for five people of said level. Raids are tougher and need far more equipment, coordination and time.

I'm used to diagonal moviment these days, it doesn't bother me anymore, but I'm with you and hope 5E kills this sacred cow and move to hexes.

 

[Thanee]

We don't use 1-1-1-1 diagonal movement. It's stupid. We changed it to 1-2-1-2 immediately (before the first game session even). It's also used for measuring range for ranged/area/burst attacks. Only blasts stay as they are (for simplicity's sake).

Bye
Thanee

 

[avin]

By the way, when creating a char in Wow you chose: race > class > hair style, colors, etc. and that's it.

Training is different from chosing powers, you have no choice on Wow.

Now talents, that you start spending at level 10, is more close to what creating a D&D char would be... but being a Wow player I'm glad 4E is really not creating a char in Wow

 

[Pickles JG]

I can see nearest very quickly in 4e - not by counting but by looking at rows & columns. Most of the time the only either the the row or the column really matters due to the mucked up diagonals. It's a "skill" I might have picked up in 20 years of Bloodbowl.

I agree it's strange when the nearest enemy is farther away than the next nearest though this mostly amuses me rather than irritating me.

If you all hate the diagonals why not change them?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

If you all hate the diagonals why not change them?

(1) We don't all hate them, though the best attitude toward them is "indifferent."

(2) There are rules implications, which Thanee touched on above.

(3) The whole point is to give 4E a fair test, as 4E. No house-rules, in other words.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can see nearest very quickly in 4e - not by counting but by looking at rows & columns. Most of the time the only either the the row or the column really matters due to the mucked up diagonals. It's a "skill" I might have picked up in 20 years of Bloodbowl.

I agree it's strange when the nearest enemy is farther away than the next nearest though this mostly amuses me rather than irritating me.

If you all hate the diagonals why not change them?

He's a player, not the DM, so he might need to do some convincing. And if the majority prefers it the 1-1-1 way, well, I guess Jeff will have to accept that vote.

 

[Scribble]

I can understand the frustration with the squares. It does seem somewhat non intuitive, especially when the rest of the game is pretty intuitive.

I guess at this point though it doesn't bother me anymore. I think after you use the system for a while your eyes just train themselves to see things in squares.


I think rather then squares or hexes the most accurate would be just inches. You wouldn't have the easy to count grid space, but it would be more accurate I guess.

 

[pogre]

I think rather then squares or hexes the most accurate would be just inches. You wouldn't have the easy to count grid space, but it would be more accurate I guess.

Exactly what we do in games. Works quickly and well.

 

[Barcode]

Has anyone ever tried just using hexes with the RAW? Other than the oft-mentioned difficulty with mapmaking, and a 6-on-1 limit vs an 8-on-1 limit, what's to keep you from just making the switch?