"4E, as an anti-4E guy" (Session Two)

Edit: apropos of nothing: Alignment is another one of the things they didn't go far enough for my taste. It's one aspect of the game that really should go the way of the dodo. Imho, it doesn't add anything positive to the game.
I very much like the alignments in AD&D and 3e, but since in 4e it basically interacts with almost no game mechanics and the cosmology itself is really not tied to the alignment system, I fully agree with you. It should have substituted with some sort of much looser allegiance system.
 

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Now, how do you feel about running in 4E?
Doesn't it bother you that it adds a mere 2 squares to your movement when it could quadruple your speed in 3E?
Because that's actually something that _I_ find difficult to accept in 4E.

Well, 3e running was impossible. You couldn't, for example, run on a running track. Basically it just didn't happen.

Running in 4e is probably closer to a jog type of movement. You move a bit faster, but can go around corners, zig-zag, etc. You can't easily defend and really can't aim.
 

"There doesn't have to be any relation to actual distances since combats are an abstraction anyway."
I know, that the 4E rules do provide the equivalent of sqaures to an actual distance. I was trying to point out that they could have easily chosen otherwise, and I would have considered it a good thing.
It's all about the level of abstraction. When our group uses miniatures, we are effectively viewing a miniaturisation of the battlefield. So for our group, there is minimal abstraction in this aspect of play. I suppose this is why the 1-1-1 movement thing annoys me to no end.

Jhaelen said:
Why is it so important for you that someone with speed 6 shouldn't be able to move a distance of 35 feet or 40 feet? Does it really matter that much?
I suppose because it feels like cheating to me. It's like "accidently" throwing in an extra d6 into my [3.x] wizard's fireball. You're getting an advantage when you have no right to it. YMOV.

Jhaelen said:
Doesn't it bother you that it adds a mere 2 squares to your movement when it could quadruple your speed in 3E?
Because that's actually something that _I_ find difficult to accept in 4E.
Yes. It does. However, I didn't see this thread as an opportunity to catalogue the myriad of issues I have with aspects of 4E - even though in the main I am enjoying our current 4E campaign. I just wanted to stick to the topic(s) that Jeff brought up. But yes, where as 3E actually simulates quite well both the actual speed of humans and horses (ignoring the monk - which our group does), 4E turns it into an interesting but way too abstract mechanic for my group's liking - except for Dave.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

It's all about the level of abstraction. When our group uses miniatures, we are effectively viewing a miniaturisation of the battlefield.
Heh. Then you would hate my group too, because we use pennies, bullet casings, lug nuts, glass beads and little bunnies instead of minis. It's not a minaturisation of the battlefield as far as it is a point of reference.

I dare say that a plastic bunny holding the place for an orc surrounded by its glass bead minions is not a good representation of the scene.
 
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I have a few sincere questions for those who have such strong feelings for 1-2-1.

1) Obviously using actual distance calculations (such as, SQRT(X_Distance^2 + Y+Distance^2) is too much trouble to bother with, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So, if there was another system that yielded even more accurate results than 1-2-1, but without the actual mathematical calculation, would you use it if it were a little more complicated?
Three people in our group (including myself) can do pythagorus on the fly - this normally comes into play when adjudicating 3D play for us. As such, our group can handle a certain level of complexity without issue. So therefore you are saying a system less complicated than that for equal accuracy? Yeah, we'd go with that.

2) Which is better, a system that is more accurate on the average but can have greater degrees of inaccuracies, or one that is less accurate on average but has a smaller degree of inaccuracies?
The one that is more accurate on average. It makes the outlier cases easier to adjudicate on.

3) For a fair comparison of accuracy, would you say it's better to compare the 3E and 4E values against a mathematical distance that is rounded to the closest whole number, to always round down, or always round up?
When having the opportunity to sit down and work it out comparing accuracy such as we are, I don't round off, up or down. It is what it is.

4) What percentage of average accuracy would you estimate that you'd desire for a range determination system to be considered to be accurate enough?

Obviously there's a difference in how some of us value accuracy vs gameplay, I'm just curious how far this preference goes.
This is looking at the issue backwards for me. As mathematically literate as I am (Maths Major/Tutored Mathematics for over 15 years), putting a percentage on this seems counter-intuitive. More at issue for me is:
- The diagonal speed up factor of 4E is too loose an interpretation for the games I like to run and play in.
- Exceeding the limits of what my character can do feels wrong. By the way, there are aspects of both 3.x and 4E that rub me the wrong way - I just find 4E more abrasive overall.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Heh. Then you would hate my group too, because we use pennies, bullet casings, lug nuts, glass beads and little bunnies instead of minis. It's not a minaturisation of the battlefield as far as it is a point of reference.
I wouldn't hate your group at all. Actually it's more that most of us collect and paint miniatures. Eddie has most likely spend over 10K on minis (that we know of anyway), so we kind of feel obligated to use them. :o
Whenever someone brings in a new character, they have generally painted it up just so... it's just what our group does I suppose.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

I used to work as part of a team to fix Tornado Fighter Aircraft, hang in- I'm going somewhere with this. The Tornado's were training aircraft- ostensibly UK RAF pilots used them to teach Italian and German Pilots. Before the trainees were allowed in the aircraft they had to read lots of instruction manuals, take a test, attend lots of lectures etc. Then when they'd signed off on all of this, and passed the test- learnt the rules, only then were they allowed to take a test drive.

And they'd turn up at the Line (where we line up the Tornado's) and some grubby little monkey (my Sgt/Chief Tech) would tell them about all the rules that were broken, or don't work, or have never worked- "you know where they taught you about when the APU... Well don't do what they taught, not what's in the books, it doesn''t work like that- I promise." Then we'd go through all of things that the aircraft should be able to do but err... couldn't or wouldn't or at least don't try any of the above (please), and they'd have to sign to say they'd seen and heard, and if they were smart they'd check their insurance.

And sometimes a Pilot would forget about what we'd told him about the APU (or whatever) and then we'd have to put out the fire, and then go back about our business- the keepers of the knowledge, not the rules though they're in books, just how it works best (or at all).

In short we house-ruled the Tornado- £22,000,000 and change and it don't work like it says in the books.

And so to D&D, I've been at it a few years (25+), every edition is broken or at least needs house rules, not because the books wrong but because I'm right- and it's my game, so there.

So I get what your saying OP, an immersive environment, and it feels wrong- the distances, the movement; but there's an awful lot of maths in these posts, and... well just fix it, whatever works for you. If 3.x floats your boat as far as movement goes then figure a way to make it work- plenty of suggestions here, although some of them make my head itch on the inside.

I play using Maptools, I hated 4e when it came out, I've been playing it every Friday for the past (however long it's been out- less a few months of stolid- "I'm not switching"). I've played on-line with approx. 30 people in that time (me DM), nobody has mentioned the movement/measuring problem yet (and my present game is global, Serbia, Spain, USA and Halifax(UK)). That of course doesn't make us better people than the OP, possibly we're not as bright as the OP.

Perhaps we're less bothered, perhaps the immersive environment comes from having nice maps, cool descriptions, cool tokens, cool monsters with strange new abilities and the odd fool who tries to get in character and do the voices (ahem... that'd be me then), but in general lots of other cool stuff, which we port from game to game, edition to edition- like the rules that we like.

In conclusion- you hate 4e, your words (even without the vehemance of the word hate) you come to the game fearing the worst- where's the revelation, you don't like a game (for reason N) that you don't like. Meh.

On the positive side I hated 4e for a myriad reasons, unless your posting all your other dislikes elsewhere then you're expending a lot of energy (as are others) on one broken rule- which is fine (afterall so am I now).

And so with respect- I think you secretly love 4e and are locked in some internal battle in your mind for the very soul of D&D (as you know it)- a longshot I know, but I've backed outsiders before.

Lastly the Tornado was billed, at one time or another, as the all-weather-fighter- which even then sounded silly, we generally had to apply two rolls of gaffer tape liberally in order to get anywhere close to living up to that moniker.

4e has plenty of crap rules that I don't get, D&D taken as a whole has provided me with a myriad alternatives- pick one.

Honestly, all the best with it, whichever edition you decide to play; D&D's a great game- taken as a whole.

I still dislike Wizards though- and please don't respond to this, my tongue's in my cheek as I write it.
 

The Return of the Rule

True story. When I started playing 3e back in the day, it was with anti-battlemat people, so I didn't have a reference for how to deal with miniature. In fact, when I first started playing in the 90s, there was a kind of anti-miniature and battlemat sentiment going around. When I started-up my own group as the DM I didn't use one but half my players (I had two, the other one was his girlfriend who was new to D&D and tabletop RPGs in general ) insisted on some kind of representation.

So I invested in a battlemat and some tokens. I believe mine for from Sword and Sorcery. Now had pay more attention to the movement rules and such. The original printing of the 3e PHB (the one with few monsters in the back to tide the DM over until the MM came out two months later) didn't say, one way or another, how to count squares. I went with a 1-1-1 standard (aware that it was unrealistic, but chalking it up to D&D is unrealistic).

In fact, I had to make a lot a decisions that IIRC weren't in the 3e rule book. For example, my first, home made, fireball template started in the center of the square and not at an intersection. Latter, through the website and Dragon I gathered 'official' templates. I also found out that, technically, I was supposed to count every other square as 2 squares. Since it wasn't in the rulebook and I didn't like that rule (to cumbersome for me) I ignored it. Latter, in the 3.5 rulebook the 1-2-1 was included. That's when I switched, figuring it was better to switch than to argue over personal taste.

So, when 4e went the 1-1-1 route, I considered it a return to a rule that I feel never should have been changed.
 


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