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4E 4e ask a simple question, get a simple answer

Zathris

First Post
On a Carnage Weapon ("When you roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice, the target takes extra damage equal to twice the weapon’s enhancement bonus.")- what counts as a damage die? Are we only talking [W]s here, or do things like the extra dice from a critical hit, devastating critical, etc. count as well?

It's only the [W]s and that includes weapons like Gouge that roll 2d6, the "Weapons Damage Die" is defined as the 2d6, so you need a 12 to trigger Carnage. (there was a pretty dumb argument about it, and even though this is clearly RAI and RAW, etv.)
 

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Princelucianus

Explorer
Hi.

A friend of mine has taken the feat ''Fervent Ardent''. It states that you can use Ardent Surge once a day.
I interpret that as one time during an encounter per day, but he claims you can use it twice during an encounter, but only once per day.
Since we seem to be at a deadlock, I wonder if there's a clarification for this?

Thanks
 

Zathris

First Post
Hi.

A friend of mine has taken the feat ''Fervent Ardent''. It states that you can use Ardent Surge once a day.
I interpret that as one time during an encounter per day, but he claims you can use it twice during an encounter, but only once per day.
Since we seem to be at a deadlock, I wonder if there's a clarification for this?

Thanks
I assume you mean the Multiclass Ardent feat: Fervent Talent.

His claim makes no sense and is just wrong. "Once per day" means "Once per day" means "Once per day".

I'm assuming he's basing his statement off of the text on Ardent Surge that says "Special: You can use this power twice per encounter..." But 4e rules work based on more specific rules taking precedence over general rules.
General: Encounter Powers are usable only once per encounter.
General: Ardents, and only Ardents, gain the Ardent Surge power.
Specific: Ardent Surge says it can be used twice (and later thrice) per encounter.
More Specific: Fervent Talent says a non-Ardent can use Ardent Surge once per day.

He would be right if Fervent Talent said "In one encounter per day, you can use Ardent Surge" because there would be nothing to supersede the special text on Ardent Surge. However, "Once per day" pretty obviously trumps.
 

MwaO

Explorer
Right. Always look to the general rules of how the power works first, then see what the specific limitations(if any) of how you got it change how it works. Those specific limitations always win.

And in this case, once per day means the power can be used once per day, not twice.
 

Tussin

Villager
i am attempting to create a new character that is fun and different... i just want to know how this applies?

for the Scholar character theme... it says i have the language, does it mean i can read, write and speak it?

Scholar Level 10 Feature (10th level): You know all the languages listed in the Rules Compendium (page 69) and Player's Handbook (page 25). (At the Dungeon Master’s discretion, other languages can be added to the languages you know with this feature.) You can also attempt an Arcana check (hard DC of your level) to decipher a message written in code or protected by a magical disguise.
 


Tussin

Villager
awesome, in a related question, i want to be a Scholar in effect... what races would complement it the most you feel? to be a master linguist? and if so are any of these racials duplicate-able by feats or anything else i can pickup later?

Kenku - Mimicry: You can imitate sounds and voices you have heard, even sounds that cannot normally be made by humanoids. Each time you attempt to mimic a sound, you must succeed on a Bluff check to fool those who hear the sound into believing it is genuine.

Kalashtar - Telepathy 5: You can communicate with any other creature that has a language and is within line of sight and within 5 squares of you; this allows for two-way communication

Shardmind - Telepathy: You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 5 squares of you that has a language.

Pixie - Speak with Beasts: You can communicate with natural beasts and fey beasts.

Hengeyokai - Language of Beasts: While you are in animal or hybrid form, you can communicate with any natural or fey beasts that share your animal form or a form that is closely related (for example, a dog hengeyokai can communicate with a wolf). In human form, you can understand these beasts but cannot directly communicate with them.
You can communicate simple concepts and commands to such creatures, but they are under no compulsion to obey you, and their knowledge is restricted by their experience and mobility. Beasts you talk to are not necessarily friendly; your DM may require skill checks to influence their attitude.

Changeling - Shapechanger: You have the shapechanger subtype; you can alter your appearance. As such, you are subject to effects and conditions that affect shapechangers. (the ability to look like a race that speaks anything is more flavor then an effect?)
 

Zathris

First Post
awesome, in a related question, i want to be a Scholar in effect... what races would complement it the most you feel? to be a master linguist? and if so are any of these racials duplicate-able by feats or anything else i can pickup later?

Kenku - Mimicry: You can imitate sounds and voices you have heard, even sounds that cannot normally be made by humanoids. Each time you attempt to mimic a sound, you must succeed on a Bluff check to fool those who hear the sound into believing it is genuine.

Kalashtar - Telepathy 5: You can communicate with any other creature that has a language and is within line of sight and within 5 squares of you; this allows for two-way communication

Shardmind - Telepathy: You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 5 squares of you that has a language.

Pixie - Speak with Beasts: You can communicate with natural beasts and fey beasts.

Hengeyokai - Language of Beasts: While you are in animal or hybrid form, you can communicate with any natural or fey beasts that share your animal form or a form that is closely related (for example, a dog hengeyokai can communicate with a wolf). In human form, you can understand these beasts but cannot directly communicate with them.
You can communicate simple concepts and commands to such creatures, but they are under no compulsion to obey you, and their knowledge is restricted by their experience and mobility. Beasts you talk to are not necessarily friendly; your DM may require skill checks to influence their attitude.

Changeling - Shapechanger: You have the shapechanger subtype; you can alter your appearance. As such, you are subject to effects and conditions that affect shapechangers. (the ability to look like a race that speaks anything is more flavor then an effect?)
I'll be perfectly honest; I don't think Scholar or Master Linguist are character traits that you should ever build toward in D&D. My reasons go beyond any opinions of optimization being required for a Combat system (which is true).

The thing to remember (and for your DM to remember) is that in D&D you are not playing *against* the DM, they are running a setting in which your characters are the stars. If no one in the party speaks dwarven, including a puzzle or plot device that requires knowing dwarven is wrongbadmeandumb. Now, knowing dwarven can give you an advantage in certain non-crucial situations (negotiations, disarming a trap, etc) but it should never be involved as a Pass/Fail choice. If the DM does begin to include those sort of things, it ultimately either detracts from the other players in the party because they cannot participate, or forces them to waste resources on knowing Dwarven so that they can participate.

This is why they include such a large number of magic items and consumables (including rituals) that mimick all of the abilities you've listed. At 1st level you can have the Comprehend Languages ritual, As early as level 5 you can pick up items to know any language (Polyglot Gem), and at level 2 if you can use a staff, you can understand the writing and speech of literally every language because of the special property of Supernal (Staff of Tongues). Speaking with animals can come from a level 4 alternative award (Speak with Animals). Disguises come later without a good Bluff skill, Wizards can do it at level 6...

So to answer your question, I would be a Deva Wizard if I wanted to be any sort of Scholar, at level 11 you effectively know every language (Remembered Mother Tongue) and well before then you can look like anyone, speak to anyone, craft illusionary objects and sounds, and with some cantrip help you'll excel at every important skill. Importantly, because most of this is with rituals, your DM still shouldn't be creating challenges that require your character to be the sole actor in a scene.
 

masteraleph

Explorer
FWIW, Zathris is slightly off on Supernal- Supernal can be spoken so that anyone understands it by immortals, but that doesn't mean they can understand everyone. But yes, Devas who speak Supernal can make everyone understand, even if they can't get all the responses.
 

Tussin

Villager
i understand, i just wanted to be ready for any curveball that may be presented.

i also had a few ideas for synergy with this as well

Traveler's Insight
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Trained in Insight
Benefit: You gain a feat bonus to Insight checks equal to the number of languages you know.

i also want to get my monster check skills high so i can utilize this and give the party a boost if one presents itself

Use Vulnerability (Scholar ability)

You know the strengths and weaknesses of the creature you’re facing.

Encounter Arcane
Free Action Personal

Trigger: You succeed on a monster knowledge check against a monster that you can see or hear.

Effect: If your check result meets or exceeds the hard DC for the monster’s level, you gain a +4 power bonus to all defenses against the monster's attacks until the end of your next turn. Additionally, until the end of your next turn, you gain a power bonus to damage rolls against the target equal to your Intelligence modifier, but not when you deal damage that the target resists.
If your check result does not meet or exceed the hard DC, your attacks against the target deal only half damage until the end of your next turn.

i also really enjoy the level 2 and 10 Scholar abilities and plan to use them

Deva is a great choice i do like their racial ability as well. hmm

i would like to poach the Serpent's Cunning or Owl's Wisdom level 6 druid utility skills if possible... nice but not essential

hybriding or multiclassing Bard would be great because of the feat support alone for getting my knowledge/monster check skills up high, and healing is a nice plus

Bardic Knowledge/Bard of all trades/Jack of all trades can raise them up in another way

so i am at a toss up, do i make a pure Bard or Wizard for their slight bonuses down the road? multiclassing Druid wouldn't get my direct access to their level 6 utility for selection, if i pick Druid in any way i can't improve my healing because most of the feats are Cleric related, i would need a multiclass of that later on via Bard if at all. if i multiclass Bard i would get the feat support, no bard abilities and 1 healing spell per day
 

wasteomana

First Post
I'll go against Zathris on the idea that making a plot device that revolves around the Dwarven Language is a bad idea if you are DMing for a group of people who don't have that language on the list. Language as a plot device is something I've used and seen used pretty extensively. I've only seen it used wrong when it is a dead-end for the players "Oh, well nobody speaks the language of the quest giver, so session over". It should be something the players can overcome and have to deal with.

As far as Traveler's Insight is concerned, consider talking with your DM about it. The DM should be on the same page as you regarding how passive insight works before you build something that is going to have a crazy passive insight. With Traveller's Insight it is not hard to get your passive to beat Hard DC by a lot which should mean its nearly impossible to lie to you and standing illusions should melt before your eyes. If the DM is not on that page that could get annoying for both of you.

That being said if you are trying to get more languages you should try for things that allow you to pick Forgotten Realms languages. A race with an extra language that you can take as Thayan, or background in a language not in the PHB. The Scholar ability only gives you the languages in the PHB. Most races start off with Common + one at minimum which means you are getting 8 from Scholar. Not that it is terrible to pick up 8 languages, but there are a ton of other languages that exist in the game. All that being said, talk to your DM about what languages exist in their world. I've seen several DMs that make more or less languages a thing.
 

Tussin

Villager
with Deva i can pick two languages from the non Scholar ones i get access to.

with this feat can i select from the Forgotten Realm Languages at all? in the builder i only see the regular ones pop up... is that right or can it be houseruled?

Mark of Scribing [Dragonmark]

Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose four languages. You can speak, read, and write those languages fluently. When you gain a level, you can retrain one of these languages instead of a feat, a power, or a skill.
You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks.
You can master and perform rituals as if you had the Ritual Caster feat. Furthermore, you can create scrolls in half the normal time (that is, the same amount of time it takes create a ritual book).

this would also work well as a background.

Dragon Coast - Campaign

Benefit: You can reroll any Insight check, but you must keep the second result, even if it is worse.
You also gain one additional language of your choice.
 

Zathris

First Post
FWIW, Zathris is slightly off on Supernal- Supernal can be spoken so that anyone understands it by immortals, but that doesn't mean they can understand everyone. But yes, Devas who speak Supernal can make everyone understand, even if they can't get all the responses.
You have that wrong, RC p68 has the rules.
Immortals that speak Supernal can understand speech and writing in any language. You can hear, but you can't respond.

Only Gods and Angels (and Devas with Remembered Mother Tongue) can speak so that anyone with a language can understand them.
 

Zathris

First Post
[MENTION=24488]was[/MENTION]teofmana: My main issues comes from the resource expenditure. When a Deva with a single feat in Paragon outright trumps what you can do, it significantly diminishes what you were doing. Themes should be worth more than Feats. You already mention the problems with Travelers Insight.

Being a Scholar only requires you to have a good Int and a couple incidental bonuses, the rest is just roleplay.

with Deva i can pick two languages from the non Scholar ones i get access to.

with this feat can i select from the Forgotten Realm Languages at all? in the builder i only see the regular ones pop up... is that right or can it be houseruled?

Mark of Scribing [Dragonmark]

Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose four languages. You can speak, read, and write those languages fluently. When you gain a level, you can retrain one of these languages instead of a feat, a power, or a skill.
You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks.
You can master and perform rituals as if you had the Ritual Caster feat. Furthermore, you can create scrolls in half the normal time (that is, the same amount of time it takes create a ritual book).

this would also work well as a background.

Dragon Coast - Campaign

Benefit: You can reroll any Insight check, but you must keep the second result, even if it is worse.
You also gain one additional language of your choice.

My personal opinion when it comes to the absurd number of Forgotten Realms languages is that only unique scripts count toward Travelers Insight, but that's obviously not RAW.

The reason Mark of Scribing doesn't let you select FR languages is that it's a specifically Dark Sun feat. If you're playing in FR, you should ask your DM if you can take it, if you can take it then there's no reason you can't select the FR languages.
 

Tussin

Villager
if i went Linguist instead of Mark of Scribing, would that work as an alternative?

and is there a list somewhere showing a language/script list so i can pick and choose so i can maximize my Traveler's Insight feat bonus for my unique script count? so when i pick new languages with Linguist it will benefit me the most
 

wasteomana

First Post
Tussin, you either missed the point or ignored it completely. What you are doing is something you should run by your DM first. The only way to keep yourself from getting really perturbed by your DM or vice versa is to first make sure this is something your DM will go for and let you really shine with. Because if you play in a game where lying and trickery on commonplace, that might not fit with it or be incredibly strong. If you play in a game where the DM isn't going to let you auto-lie-detector everything, that's not going to fit either.

Also the Marks are Eberron specific not Dark Sun or Forgotten Realms.

Step 1 needs to be talk with DM.
Step 2 needs to be Check your passive Insight with only scholar and Traveler's Insight vs Hard DC Insight (see how many levels above you that will be an auto-pass)
Step 3 needs to be adjusting to fit.

None of these will involve Linguist as it is a waste of resources. Traveler's Insight might be a waste of resources if you don't see a use for it in the campaign (and your DM isn't going to just shut you down). Scholar itself isn't a great theme, but it isn't terrible. Just keep in mind when you are building what you are getting out of it.
 

Tussin

Villager
later down the road i could use talents to pickup remaining languages. i know it will be fine with my DM he has thrown in a few npcs that speak different languages and where it could have helped to translate and communicate.

i don't think insight is as powerful as having a high bluff/diplomacy/intimidate score. my character will have many glaring weaknesses for one or two things i specialize in, the trade offs are there.

thank you for all the rulings and help, it will help me make corrections as i finalize my touches now.

i'm also curious how Secret Language correlates from this background? if i select it as my option

Occupation - Thug

Type: Occupation
Campaign Setting: General
You were a thug, such as an enforcer, a tough, or a bodyguard. Did you work for anyone? If so, who? What sorts of missions did you undertake? Were you feared in your community? Or did you stand up for those who were too weak to protect themselves? Why did you leave? Did you leave behind any enemies?
Associated Skills: Athletics, Intimidate
Associated Languages: Secret Language

is this Secret Language different from this Unseelie Agent character theme?

Unseelie Agent Level 5 Feature (5th level): You can speak, read, and write the secret language of the Unseelie fey. This language can be used to communicate securely with others of your ilk.

are these two different?
 


darkbard

Explorer
Perhaps not as simple a question as could be, but will Zathris finish the incipient "Unlocking the Warlock" reboot of Duelist's Warlock guide here on ENWorld?
 

masteraleph

Explorer
Putting together an Eladrin Swordmage|Warlock for a limited adventure- starting (and probably ending) at level 13, probably with no extended rests, about 4 sessions or so.

Here's the question:

10/17/10/15+2/8/13+2 starting array (11/20/11/20/9/16 now), Star and Infernal as pacts, with Tyrannical Thread as a daily and probably Mordant Rains of Dis as an Encounter, or 10/13/10/17+2/8/15+2 or 10/13/10/15+2/8/17+2 starting array (14 in CON and a 20 and a 22 in INT/CHA- not sure which one to go with) and Touch of Command as an Encounter and Command Insanity as Daily?
 

Halloween Horror For 5E

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