D&D 4E 4E balance: Does it extend to PvP?

[SaffroN]

yeah. 1v1 will not be balanced...

However 1v1v1v1 or any other deathmatch style PvP will be self-balancing. Its not really about how good your character is, its role, etc. Its about avoiding getting ganged up on. Sure tactics play a part, but even the best rolls won't help you if player A, B and C decide to pound on you instead of each other.

3v3 or any other group situation will be a lot more focused on working well as a team. Great team tactics will stomp all over any group who acts as individuals.

A lot of it depends on the rolls though...

 

[Lanefan]

I would think that this is such a minority issue in the whole worldwide community of D&D players that they probably wouldn't want to waste any time even trying to make it work in that respect.

Even if I knew nothing else about you, that statement alone would be enough to tell me you have never gamed in our circle.

We've never had a party (other than a few rare one-offs) that didn't eventually end up throwing down against each other in some form...be it a formal duel, a theft-countertheft situation, an assassination attempt (or success), an in-party drumhead trial of one or more PCs for offenses real or imagined, practical jokes via spellcraft, a good old-fashioned brawl erupting out of an argument, or in many cases more than one of the above simultaneously.

That said, I hope they don't spend design time trying to "balance" the party against itself. It'd ruin the fun!

Lanefan

 

[BASHMAN]

Well in a 2 on 2 fight I ran, it was Fighter & Ranger vs. Paladin & Warlock. Fighter & Ranger won-- but I was using the "accurate strike" with +4 damage at the time. W/0 it, it may have gone the other way.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Assuming that PVP means one character versus one other character, no. I do not think that 4e will be balanced for PVP.

It will probably balance just great for Party v. Party.

But in PVP, there are certain fundamental problems. For example, consider a ranger with a move of 6 and a power that lets him shift one space before he attacks. Put him in combat with a Fighter in plate mail armor and a move of 5. The fighter can run at 7, but the ranger can retreat at 7. If the ranger starts 8 spaces away, the fighter can never, ever catch him.

This sort of problem is probably unfixable.

You're thinking in 3rd Edition terms here. . .

In 3E, a fighters only good attack option was to full attack with his primary melee weapon.

In 4E, I've gotten the impression that fighters might be more rounded in their abilities. Thus, it could be that your typical 4E fighter is pretty handy with a bow as well. Maybe no expert, but enough that his higher AC and more hitpoints could allow him to carry the day even in a ranged duel.

Plus there's the terrain factor. If the battle takes place in an enclosed environment, that would tend to tip things in the fighter's favor. Not to mention terrain is supposed to play a larger role in 4E engagements. We'll see what that turns out to mean.

 

[Cadfan]

You're thinking in 3rd Edition terms here. . .

In 3E, a fighters only good attack option was to full attack with his primary melee weapon.

In 4E, I've gotten the impression that fighters might be more rounded in their abilities. Thus, it could be that your typical 4E fighter is pretty handy with a bow as well. Maybe no expert, but enough that his higher AC and more hitpoints could allow him to carry the day even in a ranged duel.

Plus there's the terrain factor. If the battle takes place in an enclosed environment, that would tend to tip things in the fighter's favor. Not to mention terrain is supposed to play a larger role in 4E engagements. We'll see what that turns out to mean.

Of course, of course. But I will still be very surprised if we don't have situations where one class can create a combination of powers that cannot be effectively countered by another particular class. Perhaps the Wizard will have powers that the Rogue basically can't combat, but which the Fighter walks through like they're not even there. Maybe it will be something else. Whatever it is, I think its safe to say that in an exception based system, this will happen.

The game is being balanced for team play. That means that occasionally you get one on one matchups that are a lot like playing rock/paper/scissors without the scissors.

 

[tomBitonti]

Not sure if this falls under the original set of questions, but I am wondering about encounters that are against PC type foes. Has anyone run a fight with the preview characters against each other in a fight? Is the game at all designed to allow a "boss" to be statted similar to a PC?

In our games, we have a lot of opponents which are not at all monsters, but rather levelled creature, often other humans, but a lot of other races as well. We are definitely geared towards the opponents being about the same as the PC's, but just in another faction.

As an example, we have had "PC statted" NPCs who have defected to another faction, and then turned into an opponent later on. How well will this work in the new system? The NPCs started as members of a military organization which includes the PCs. They go on missions with PCs, and are used at times as a PC characters.

Another format that we have used is a training mission with PCs against PCs, with an object like "last man standing" or "king of the hill".

Thx!

 

[Kraydak]

I expect PvP (and PvP similar activites such as fighting PC classes NPCs) to be unfun. Certainly in previous editions, but perhaps shaping up even *more* in 4e (the limited rogue info), the bulk of PvP attacks aren't against armor, while the bulk of PvE attacks (random monsters) are against armor. Not fun for defenders. 4e is giving forced movement abilities to everyone. If everyone has the ability to force people to move then combat become non-tactical. (forced movement always reduces the global tactical options, even if it increases personal tactics) Further, people who are melee-ranged limited lose the ability to use their specials if their opponents force them to move. If, on the other hand, they can resist forced movement, that isn't fun for people built around forcing their foes to move. Someone is going to lose access to a substantial fraction of their powers.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Not sure if this falls under the original set of questions, but I am wondering about encounters that are against PC type foes. Has anyone run a fight with the preview characters against each other in a fight? Is the game at all designed to allow a "boss" to be statted similar to a PC?

I did. Ranger vs. Warlock vs. Wizard. I was the Ranger and I died from the Warlock's daily (Curse of the Dark Dream or some such) in one shot. We played a couple times after just running through some base encounters. Was as balanced as I would expect it to be. Nothing glaringly off balanced came out of that encounter. Would have been better if we did 2 vs. 2 vs. 2, but it seemed fine to me in that couple of games.

 

[tomBitonti]

I did. Ranger vs. Warlock vs. Wizard. I was the Ranger and I died from the Warlock's daily (Curse of the Dark Dream or some such) in one shot. We played a couple times after just running through some base encounters. Was as balanced as I would expect it to be. Nothing glaringly off balanced came out of that encounter. Would have been better if we did 2 vs. 2 vs. 2, but it seemed fine to me in that couple of games.

Thx!

What I'm really looking for is a 4x4 (or are there 6 pregen? So a 6x6 should be possible?) I'm thinking both combats would be revealing!