4E combat grind but not boring

[Jack99]

I did not say 4E combat is boring in fact I specifically stated more than once that it was fun, if you are going to try and cast my posts in a negative light at least try to be accurate.

I did say that in my opinion that this particular fight was my first experience with what others had described as the 4E combat grind and that I did in fact find it to be a grind. I also did point out that in my opinion it seemed system related since I have not experienced 2+ hour combats in other editions especially at second level.

Perhaps you should read another thread if you find this discussion so objectionable that you feel the need to fabricate my motivations.

Or maybe you should be more clear and precise. I am not fabricating anything.

Well in our 4E game last night we got a first hand dose of the grind that is 4E combat. This is not to say that the battle was boring, it was certainly not, but it certainly felt like it took forever.

The bolded part means: 4e combat is a grind. That's where you start. There is not 7 ways of understanding that sentence. I am telling you that if said combat felt like a grind, your DM was to fault, not the system.

 

[Mark]

I am telling you that if said combat felt like a grind, your DM was to fault, not the system.

That appears to be a matter of opinion that is under discussion and there are many people constructively offering solutions to the perceived problem. You should really not be so swift to make such accusations.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The bolded part means: 4e combat is a grind. That's where you start. There is not 7 ways of understanding that sentence. I am telling you that if said combat felt like a grind, your DM was to fault, not the system.

We can see by the numbers that the encounter was a gross overmatch for the party which was the fault of the DM.

The fact that such an overmatch took 2 hours to resolve is at least partially a system issue.

 

[Shazman]

When every monster has a gazillion hit points, of course combat is going to take forever. It seems odd that one of the goals of 4E was faster combats. Am I the only one that has seen both longer rounds (at least at low levels) and longer combats in 4E compared to 3.5? It seems like they failed to meet this particular goal.

 

[Ydars]

ShadyDM; I think the comment on your avatar might have influenced Jack99's opinion. It says you are a "$E skeptic", so it might be natural for people to assume you don't really like the game. I don't mind either way but some people mind a great deal it seems.............

 

[helium3]

I'd guess the DM was under the mindset that since PCs could fight Ogres and friends at level 2 before, they should be able to handle it now. Maybe if the party was fully prepared, fresh full of Dailys and full hit points, and were the ones doing the ambushing, then maybe they had a chance. (I'm still betting against them simply due to the ogre). But as it was presented, they were simply doomed.

A 2nd level part should (according to the DMG) be able to handle that encounter (assuming it was level 5 or 6 and the highest monster level was 8) but just barely.

 

[Ourph]

We can see by the numbers that the encounter was a gross overmatch for the party which was the fault of the DM.

The fact that such an overmatch took 2 hours to resolve is at least partially a system issue.

Exactly! In every other edition of D&D I've played, a gross overmatch of Monsters to PCs ends pretty quickly. This is also true of the opposite scenario, where the PCs grossly outmatch their opponents. Somebody goes splat and the combat is over.

I really like that this isn't the case in 4e. It's at the core of what makes 4e less "swingy". Combats last longer, so that even when things are going really badly for the PCs they've got a chance to turn things around or (at the very least) run away. Of course, in an encounter where the outcome is pretty much a foregone conclusion, I can see how the extended combat could get boring. But for well-designed encounters within the normal challenge range for a party, I love that combats "grind" a little, because it means the PCs' choices matter a lot more than a few lucky or unlucky dice rolls.

 

[Mark]

(. . .) less "swingy". Combats last longer (. . .)

Those seem to be contradictory. "Swingy" isn't just a matter of always, literally, swinging a sword, or even always just winding up doing the same one action (though 4E seems to sometimes fall to that in many longer encounters, if posters' experiences are to be believed), but more about dragging out combats. If even a lopsided battle gets long-drawn-out because of the way the system is set up then for many people this is a problem with the system. There have been some good solutions in threads on how to deal with this, and from what I am told in one or two official online mag articles, but more would be welcome.

 

[Shadeydm]

Anyway. You might want 4e to be boring

Fabrication FTW!

 

[Ourph]

Those seem to be contradictory. "Swingy" isn't just a matter of always, literally, swinging a sword, or even always just winding up doing the same one action (though 4E seems to sometimes fall to that in many longer encounters, if posters' experiences are to be believed), but more about dragging out combats.

I think you're misunderstanding the use of the term "swingy". It refers to the tendency of an encounter's outcome being determined by single actions or events. The big, bad monster rolling an unlucky 1 on his saving throw against a Save-or-Die effect in the first round of combat is "swingy". The party Cleric being killed (i.e. -10 or below, no chance to recover, dead) by a lucky critical hit from a great axe-wielding orc in the first round of combat is "swingy". Longer combats in 4e are a by-product or adjunct to the combats being less "swingy".

If even a lopsided battle gets long-drawn-out because of the way the system is set up then for many people this is a problem with the system. There have been some good solutions in threads on how to deal with this, and from what I am told in one or two official online mag articles, but more would be welcome.

I absolutely agree that combats which last more rounds than in 3e are a product of the system. I also recognize it's a problem for some people. In fact, I said both of those things in the post you quoted. My point was that it's not a problem for me. I like the fact that 4e encounters tend to last about double the rounds that my combats in 3e lasted. To me, it's a feature, not a bug because it's part of making the combats depend more on player choices rather than one or two lucky dice rolls.