D&D 4E 4E conversions of 5E

It sounds like "conversions" of modules from 1e to 4e would be better phrased as "4e adventures inspired by 1e adventures." Sorta like the difference between a historical film/biopic and a docudrama/"based on true events" film. Both are about historical things, both give consideration to an interesting person or event in history. But one focuses on being as accurate as possible even if it means being less "compelling," while the other focuses on telling a gripping story even if that requires a greater degree of dramatic license. Both are entertaining, both are important parts of cinema (and studying history, for that matter), but they're different enough that trying to pass one off as the other is likely to fail.

Honestly I think a lot of 1e adventures would have been better had they been written like 4e ones, though the system would provide scant support for some aspects of that (still, you could do it, I'm sure you could pull off an 'SC' in 1e, it would just have to spell out more of the process). But yeah, I think 4e conversions of 1e would be 'inspired by' kind of things. 5e maybe not quite so much, but a lot of the tone and adventure structure of 5e adventures reminds me heavily of 2e ones.
 

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pemerton

Legend
It sounds like "conversions" of modules from 1e to 4e would be better phrased as "4e adventures inspired by 1e adventures."
When I ran the first two parts of Night's Dark Terror (the river ambush, the raid on the farmstead, exploring/clearing the goblin lairs) it was a conversion: same maps, same in-story motivations, more-or-less the same numbers of NPCs.

Of course I had to assign statblocks to the goblins, had to work out how non-combat action got translated into skill challenges, etc, but that is part of converting any adventure into 4e.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It sounds like "conversions" of modules from 1e to 4e would be better phrased as "4e adventures inspired by 1e adventures." Sorta like the difference between a historical film/biopic and a docudrama/"based on true events" film.
I ran Temple of the Frog (0e, from Blackmoor) with Essentials rules and fairly direct conversion (monster -> monster, when available, for instance, all the 'encounters' in the numbers and places they were described, &c). It was a very un-even experience for the PCs, because a lot of the encounters were just very quick & utterly trivial (unfamiliar to 4e players), while a few were nasty, but it worked surprisingly well. Just because 4e has a well-worn, dependable guideline for encounters doesn't mean it's not robust enough to handle some old-school craziness.
 

I ran Temple of the Frog (0e, from Blackmoor) with Essentials rules and fairly direct conversion (monster -> monster, when available, for instance, all the 'encounters' in the numbers and places they were described, &c). It was a very un-even experience for the PCs, because a lot of the encounters were just very quick & utterly trivial (unfamiliar to 4e players), while a few were nasty, but it worked surprisingly well. Just because 4e has a well-worn, dependable guideline for encounters doesn't mean it's not robust enough to handle some old-school craziness.

LOL, that is one crazy silly nasty dungeon. Oops, you let loose the Medusa! In the next room are a few orcs, etc. I suspect Dave assumed that the PCs would bargain with the Medusa (which have been walled up inside a sealed room for ages, they might actually be nice to the PCs) but it was, as you say, a very uneven dungeon with high level and trivial encounters juxtaposed, even by '0e' rules.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
When I ran the first two parts of Night's Dark Terror (the river ambush, the raid on the farmstead, exploring/clearing the goblin lairs) it was a conversion: same maps, same in-story motivations, more-or-less the same numbers of NPCs.

Of course I had to assign statblocks to the goblins, had to work out how non-combat action got translated into skill challenges, etc, but that is part of converting any adventure into 4e.

I ran Temple of the
Frog (0e, from Blackmoor) with Essentials rules and fairly direct conversion (monster -> monster, when available, for instance, all the 'encounters' in the numbers and places they were described, &c). It was a very un-even experience for the PCs, because a lot of the encounters were just very quick & utterly trivial (unfamiliar to 4e players), while a few were nasty, but it worked surprisingly well. Just because 4e has a well-worn, dependable guideline for encounters doesn't mean it's not robust enough to handle some old-school craziness.

I wasn't really trying to say that it was "challenging," I guess, to keep the encounters as they were and simply slot in monsters, level for level or whatever standard you choose. That's, essentially, the RPG equivalent of a word-for-word translation of a text, which is (theoretically) always achievable with a bit of circumlocution.

Rather, I meant that if you want a less "uneven" experience, if you want to avoid things 4e does poorly and create opportunities for it to showcase all the things it does well, it seems like all you can reliably keep is the story, a handful of character ideas, (maybe) the monster types used, and the general organization of the maps.

If that's what you want--a well-built, 4e-focused experience--you probably can't port the encounters, because that makes for lots of filler fights, which aren't all that fun in 4e (or at least they have a poor time investment:fun return ratio). On that front, we seem like we agree more than we disagree. To be fair though, I may just be projecting a little, as I did not especially enjoy the "most fights are curb stomps, but you never know if you're giving or receiving until it happens" nature of the handful of B/X (technically LL) sessions I played. (The sessions overall were fun though, very glad I was allowed to play.)

Similarly, if the "most of the maps are way too small" and "not enough maps featured terrain stuff" statements hold true, keeping the maps send like another way to lose out on what makes 4e shine. You can totally DO it, the maps aren't going to catch fire or something (though I'm sure this fact would disappoint many diehard traditionalist gamers!) But it won't work as well as it could.

Circling back to my earlier translation metaphor, I guess what I'm saying is, 4e, at a mechanical level, is a sufficiently different language that you can't just do word-for-word translation. You lose a lot, and don't gain a lot in return. Like translating the Bible to English: Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew grammar and syntax are...just realized very differently than English. Or for a different, less religious example, comparing/translating traditional Japanese poetry to English. Often, it can't be done while preserving both the form (granting syllables instead of morae) and the literal meaning of the words, because English words tend to be longer--and we'll be missing all sorts of little bits and bobs like articles. Instead, you have to either abandon the form, or abandon the word-for-word and try to achieve (poetic) meaning-for-meaning. It's similar for Chinese poetry as well (since those languages are fairly closely related), such as Li Po/Li Bai's poem (made well-known by SMAC):
"The birds have vanished in the sky,
and now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and I
until only the mountain remains."
Many of these words would not be present in the original Chinese (a quick Google search didn't turn up the original Chinese text, unfortunately). Articles and sometimes even pronouns, as in Latin, are left to context. But to capture a similar understanding in an English reader as in a Chinese reader, one would need to include them--and alter the structure of the poem to match.

Is that quite the same as what I said? Is this "an English poem inspired by a Chinese poem," or is it the same thing just "poetically translated"? Does the question even have a distinct answer? I dunno.

Perhaps it would just be best to amend my original statement: It sounds like 4e groups will get the best experience from their game by playing "4e adventures inspired by 1e adventures," in the long run, rather than trying to keep as much of the original 1e adventure as is mechanically possible.
 

Perhaps it would just be best to amend my original statement: It sounds like 4e groups will get the best experience from their game by playing "4e adventures inspired by 1e adventures," in the long run, rather than trying to keep as much of the original 1e adventure as is mechanically possible.

I think we're saying exactly the same thing, give or take.

I will say, I don't know that I agree that Japanese and Chinese are related at all, at least linguistically. Japanese has borrowed a lot of words over the last 2000 years from Chinese, but at its heart they are utterly different. Its hard for me to say much about how really similar their poetry is, since I can barely read a tiny bit of modern simplified Chinese and I don't know zip about Japanese. There are perhaps some areas of sensibility that are shared between them, perhaps. My wife is Chinese and reads a lot of old literature, she probably has a whole completely other opinion! (don't get her started on the Japanese, they're NOT a popular subject with the Chinese!). Sorry for the digression...
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think we're saying exactly the same thing, give or take.

I will say, I don't know that I agree that Japanese and Chinese are related at all, at least linguistically. Japanese has borrowed a lot of words over the last 2000 years from Chinese, but at its heart they are utterly different. Its hard for me to say much about how really similar their poetry is, since I can barely read a tiny bit of modern simplified Chinese and I don't know zip about Japanese. There are perhaps some areas of sensibility that are shared between them, perhaps. My wife is Chinese and reads a lot of old literature, she probably has a whole completely other opinion! (don't get her started on the Japanese, they're NOT a popular subject with the Chinese!). Sorry for the digression...

No worries. Digressions are a thing. I may have been talking out my ass there--I had thought they were more closely related than that, partially due to the heavy borrowing (which I did know was a thing; IIRC, the most commonly-used word for "love" in Japanese is a Chinese loanword). I do know that "articles," as we would use the term in English (a/an, the) are rare or unused in both languages, which is a pretty major difference. Having looked up their origins though, it seems they're pretty distinct--about as distinct as English and Spanish, so while my specific example happened to be correct (lack of articles in original language vs. presence in English) it was mostly by chance!
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I wasn't really trying to say that it was "challenging," I guess, to keep the encounters as they were and simply slot in monsters, level for level or whatever standard you choose. That's, essentially, the RPG equivalent of a word-for-word translation of a text, which is (theoretically) always achievable with a bit of circumlocution.

Rather, I meant that if you want a less "uneven" experience, if you want to avoid things 4e does poorly and create opportunities for it to showcase all the things it does well, it seems like all you can reliably keep is the story, a handful of character ideas, (maybe) the monster types used, and the general organization of the maps.
In the case of Temple of the Frog, the module was uneven, in it's native system. You could encounter a few 1-4hp 'killer frogs' or giant constrictor or some Trolls. You might open that room containing medusae. The BBEG at the end was fairly brutal. &c. I went through found closest matches to all the monsters, and, with the exception of the frogs, which I made into minions & swarms, the low-level guards (also minionized), and the BBEG (whose 0e write-up did not follow the usual monsters format, at all, but adapted surprisingly well, including a 'bloodied' trigger kicker) everything existed in 4e & fell into a level range of about 4-13. That's a wider range than you might consider for 4e, but an 8th or 9th level party* fits right in the middle of it.

And, it worked. It just wasn't a typical 4e experience: you had periods of wandering around an puzzling over stuff, punctuated by very short combats, and, with little warning, the occasional surprisingly deadly encounter. I did let the party try to 'map' for a bit, and switched to a must quicker to resolve Skill Challenge when they gave up. Between SCs streamlining exploration, and the level-4 & lower combats, the whole thing progressed very quickly, with only the Medusae, the BBEG, and some magic-user henchlings putting up a fight.

I might also add that I ran it on a bare tabletop (no grid), laying down pencils and dice for the walls and contents of corridors & rooms, and using a tiny pocket tape-measure to figure range & area.

If that's what you want--a well-built, 4e-focused experience--you probably can't port the encounters, because that makes for lots of filler fights, which aren't all that fun in 4e (or at least they have a poor time investment:fun return ratio). On that front, we seem like we agree more than we disagree.
The 'filler fights' pass very quickly, actually, and they do break up an otherwise monotonous routine of exploration. One standard monster or 1d4 minions vs a party just doesn't take that long to resolve.

Similarly, if the "most of the maps are way too small" and "not enough maps featured terrain stuff" statements hold true, keeping the maps send like another way to lose out on what makes 4e shine. You can totally DO it, the maps aren't going to catch fire or something (though I'm sure this fact would disappoint many diehard traditionalist gamers!) But it won't work as well as it could.
Some of the old-school dungeons were /huge/, even if the individual rooms where encounters supposedly happened might be tiny (a 10x10 room? really?). You might, for instance, get a larger combat by starting an encounter in one of those tiny rooms, but then the battle attracts guards from an adjoining room, and wandering monsters from two different directions... ;)

Circling back to my earlier translation metaphor, I guess what I'm saying is, 4e, at a mechanical level, is a sufficiently different language that you can't just do word-for-word translation. You lose a lot, and don't gain a lot in return.
Actually, I think you gain more than lose. Most monsters in an old-school dungeon, for instance, might be little more than a notation of AC & d/a and a list of individual hps, while the corresponding 4e monster will be more interesting, even in level-5 rollover. But, no, you can't go translating stats. You can't say, well, this monster is AC 4 and 13hps, that translates to AC 16 and 39 hps, not even close (conversely, in 5e, AC 16 and 13hps would work just dandy). But you can find closest-match monsters, 'giant snake' to crushgrip constrictor and so forth. You might occasionally have to level something down (4e /did/ need to fill those Paragon and Epic encounters with something, and some classic monsters ended up having a higher than ever paygrade), but that's as bad as it gets.

I guess when it comes right down to it, D&D has been trying to do D&D better for a very long time. ;)
 


pemerton

Legend
I meant that if you want a less "uneven" experience, if you want to avoid things 4e does poorly and create opportunities for it to showcase all the things it does well, it seems like all you can reliably keep is the story, a handful of character ideas, (maybe) the monster types used, and the general organization of the maps.

If that's what you want--a well-built, 4e-focused experience--you probably can't port the encounters, because that makes for lots of filler fights, which aren't all that fun in 4e
[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has spoken in favour of "filler fights" in 4e. I'll approach the issue from the opposite direction: Night's Dark Terror doesn't have any filler fights. It's a tight module. I think 4e suits it better than its original system did!

I can also report that its maps were fine. Yes, the goblin warrens involved some fights in labyrinthine conditions - but isn't that what goblins are all about?

The other classic module I have converted to 4e is G2. In this case, again, there was the need to assign frost giant stats to the many, many giants in this adventure. I departed more from the original in this conversion (eg turning visiting giants and ogres(?) into visiting eladrin of the Winter Court, as fitted with my campaign backstory). But the maps were fine - some huge distances, which 4e tends to love - and it was a lot of fun.
 

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