D&D 4E 4e core or essential?

[DracoSuave]

IF your players are new, they don't know about 'I hit it it dies' which is an artifact of pre-4th edition anyways. You're way better off teaching them about 'at-wills are your primary weapons' cause... well... it's really not that complex anyways.

There's no difference between 'I hit it with a melee basic attack' and 'I hit it with a cleave' from the point of view of a player who has never actually said 'I hit it' at all.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Essentials. It makes explaining how it all works a lot easier!

Also choices are more limited which is considered good for new players. The really can´t make an informed decision of what is good and what not.

 

[DEFCON 1]

And here I disagree. There are some people who just want to be able to say "I hit it". The focus in Essentials of everything a Martial character does being some form of basic attack really simplifies matters. And the Essentials characters don't track who's marked/cursed/quarried/etc as class features.

Just how dumb do you think these players are?

You know, two years ago there were thousands upon thousands of new players who learned how to use at-wills, marking, curses, quarries, etc. etc. with little to no problem.

Yes, Essentials in comparison to Classic might be "easier", but that doesn't mean that Classic is "hard". Fact is... BOTH are exceedingly easy to play if you have someone who knows the game and knows how to explain rules to people.

Errata.

Unnecessary. This isn't a three-year campaign he's putting together... he's putting together (from what it sounds like) a one-off or two-off game so that his players can see if they might like 4E. So worrying about crap like class balance, errata is not worth your time getting into, because as DracoSuave said... these players won't know the difference.

But either paperback is cheaper than the hardback. Monster Vault vs MM1 at low levels is no contest at all (and at high levels MM1 monsters simply don't cut it so although MV has fewer epic monsters it really isn't missing much - and has no Dracoliches, Purple Worms, Needlefang Drake Swarms, or Wraiths*).

Again... if he's buying books in preparation for a long-term game... then perhaps going straight to all the Essentials might make sense. But he's apparently not. He's teaching them the game. Why go through all that money to buy all these books if there's no guarantee he's ever going to use it again? So there's absolutely no reason to buy the Monster Manual *OR* the Monster Vault at this point in time.

And as for five classes vs eight, cancel the Warlock - that thing is not for newbies. The wizard in the PHB has some serious problems - not so in Essentials. And I'm not sure that the pre Divine Power Paladin works well enough either. Plus the Heroes books don't read like computer instruction manuals.

You are coming at all these problems as someone who's been playing the game this entire time and can actually COMPARE things to each other. The PH Warlock most certainly CAN be for newbies... as there were thousands of people who did that very thing when the first PH got released. The wizard doesn't have serious problems unless you put him right up against an Invoker and start going over the two classes against each other with a fine-toothed comb, and the Paladin also works "fine". ESPECIALLY for a bunch of players who can't compare these classes against anything else.

***

Sure, if the OP is intending on spending $75 to $100 on D&D books just to have, even if his players decide NOT to keep playing... then sure, buying the Essentials line isn't a bad way to do it.

But if he's looking at the easiest way to get what he needs to run a simple game and doesn't want to buy a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff that might not ever get used again... since he already HAS the DMG... picking up the first PH and running Kobold Hall or the free Keep On The Shadowfell is the easiest way to go. And hell... he could probably not even not bother buying the PH and just download the six pre-gen 1st level characters off the Wizards site that they released when KotS was first put up there.

Download KotS and the six pre-gens from the Wizards site and voila! You can teach players how to play D&D without spending ANY money whatsoever.

 

[Uller]

I'm in the process of teaching my two kids (one 12 and one 9) plus a group of co-workers. I am using essentials and it has been pretty good so far

As an old school DM (dating all the way back to OD&D) I think essentials is great for new players and DMs...not so much for those of us who already have a pretty good understanding of RPGs and just want a reference...

For both groups, teaching them how to play D&D has been a breeze using essentials. We are using the Red Box and are just finishing that up and then segueing into the adventure that comes in the DM Tool Kit.

However...this is working out for me as a DM only because I am using all pre-fab adventures and have no intention of writing my own stuff (I just don't have the time). I have never played this way before...if I were creating my own adventures in my own campaign setting, I'd much rather have the core books. I don't want a book that gives me step by step instructions on creating and leveling characters. I want a reference with all the options and let me pick from there.

I love the format of the Monster Vault and all the tokens it and the DM kit come with are awesome. But I find that all the essentials books just give a taste without going deep enough for the experienced DM to be able to fully construct his world. They are a starting point only and eventually other books will be needed (Adventurer's Vault, MM, etc)

For instance...Dragons...It gives you stats for Young and Elder dragons and only the chromatic ones. What about good dragons? What about Adult dragons, etc. There are lots of monsters like this where the MM gives a more complete picture of what is available. Also one thing I think is missing from the Core Rule Books (and the Essentials give you again...just a taste) is Magic Items. The DMG defines treasure parcels and calls for Magic Items of various level, but as far as I could see from my perusal of them, the only book that gives you a reasonable number of magic item descriptions is the Adventurer's Vault....so if you are creating your own, this book should be considered "core" as well.

Overall, the Essentials books and their approach to teaching the game is great. But if you already have the DMG, they aren't necessary.

Download Keep on the Shadowfell and buy the PHB or just buy the Red Box (it comes with a first level adventure). Either one will give you 10+ hours of gaming before you need anything more then see where your players want to go.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would use Essentials.

I think that the way they describe skills is better and more helpful.

I think that the feats are more distinctive and useful

I love the reduction in complexity in combat by doing away with marks, quarries, cursed people etc.

The classes feel more distinct and more flavourful to me, and give a wider range of ways of playing a class.

So for all those reasons, I'd go with Essentials every time.

 

[DonAdam]

You could use the Kobold Hall from the DMG with Essentials. It's certainly no worse than the Red Box adventure (which is beyond terrible). You'd only need 1 <$20 book for the trial run.

Errata with PHB 1 is a problem if a player decides he likes his class (or anything his character has) and wants it in a regular game only to find out it's been changed substantially.

Wizards are actually effective.

And no marks to track. That's huge.

But I disagree with the comment about warlocks being difficult. I found them to be the easiest class to teach new players in the PHB 1 days. Move action to get shadow walk, minor to curse, standard to shoot.

 

[teitan]

Well I do plan on running a campaign in the future with another group so I want a base to build on from there for the next game(s)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Just how dumb do you think these players are?

It's a matter of desired play style. Not intelligence.

Unnecessary. This isn't a three-year campaign he's putting together... he's putting together (from what it sounds like) a one-off or two-off game so that his players can see if they might like 4E. So worrying about crap like class balance, errata is not worth your time getting into, because as DracoSuave said... these players won't know the difference.

But finding their character to be ... ineffective will be a problem.

Again... if he's buying books in preparation for a long-term game... then perhaps going straight to all the Essentials might make sense. But he's apparently not. He's teaching them the game. Why go through all that money to buy all these books if there's no guarantee he's ever going to use it again? So there's absolutely no reason to buy the Monster Manual *OR* the Monster Vault at this point in time.

A good point.

You are coming at all these problems as someone who's been playing the game this entire time and can actually COMPARE things to each other. The PH Warlock most certainly CAN be for newbies... as there were thousands of people who did that very thing when the first PH got released. The wizard doesn't have serious problems unless you put him right up against an Invoker and start going over the two classes against each other with a fine-toothed comb, and the Paladin also works "fine". ESPECIALLY for a bunch of players who can't compare these classes against anything else.

Won't compare them to anything else except each other. And the PHB warlock is intensive. Not what I'd introduce someone with. You can - but throwing people in the deep end isn't often the best way.

Sure, if the OP is intending on spending $75 to $100 on D&D books just to have, even if his players decide NOT to keep playing... then sure, buying the Essentials line isn't a bad way to do it.

The difference in cost between the two paperbacks and the one hardback is ... small. And that's if he decides to go beyond one paperback anyway.

But if he's looking at the easiest way to get what he needs to run a simple game and doesn't want to buy a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff that might not ever get used again... since he already HAS the DMG... picking up the first PH and running Kobold Hall or the free Keep On The Shadowfell is the easiest way to go.

Kobold Hall. Every time. But I'd say one heroes or even both over the PHB1. One would be cheaper, easier, and sufficient.

And hell... he could probably not even not bother buying the PH and just download the six pre-gen 1st level characters off the Wizards site that they released when KotS was first put up there.

I believe you can download the Encounters pregens as well - and that would probably work even beter.

 

[S'mon]

And here I disagree. There are some people who just want to be able to say "I hit it". The focus in Essentials of everything a Martial character does being some form of basic attack really simplifies matters. And the Essentials characters don't track who's marked/cursed/quarried/etc as class features.

And as for five classes vs eight, cancel the Warlock - that thing is not for newbies. The wizard in the PHB has some serious problems - not so in Essentials. And I'm not sure that the pre Divine Power Paladin works well enough either. Plus the Heroes books don't read like computer instruction manuals.

I agree - comparing the PHB to Heroes of the Fallen Lands, I'm finding the latter to be *vastly* superior for new players (or me!) both for creating PCs - with HotF you can do it without computer support! - and for playing PCs. I'm currently playing an Essentials Rogue, and seeing the new players in the group struggling to play the PHB Warlord and Feypact Warlock, I really wished they'd known to buy Heroes of the Fallen Lands instead for making their PCs. HoTF is vastly better presented, the classes do the same things as in PHB but in much simpler, faster, more intuitive fashion, and it's cheaper. No contest IMO.

 

[S'mon]

Just how dumb do you think these players are?

You know, two years ago there were thousands upon thousands of new players who learned how to use at-wills, marking, curses, quarries, etc. etc. with little to no problem.

Yes, Essentials in comparison to Classic might be "easier", but that doesn't mean that Classic is "hard". Fact is... BOTH are exceedingly easy to play if you have someone who knows the game and knows how to explain rules to people.

Well, I have a PhD in Philosophy of Copyright and I teach postgraduate LLM International Commercial Law for a living, I'm smarter than the average bear. I even have some Maths & Physics A-levels, so I'm not totally math-phobic. But back in 2008 when the PHB came out I really couldn't make head nor tail of it. I tried and failed to make a couple PCs, gave up, and played 3e instead, until around mid 2009 when I was able to create a Fighter PC using the electronic character builder, and started getting into it. And 4e turned out to be easy to GM, though still not easy to play.
Conversely I found HotF easy to grasp and was able to make a Thief PC in a couple hours without computer support - still a long time, but I think I have a better grasp on the character than if I were using an electronic character generator. Plus the PC is in pencil so I can level him up without needing to print out another sheet!