D&D 4E 4e core or essential?

[Mithreinmaethor]

I agree - comparing the PHB to Heroes of the Fallen Lands, I'm finding the latter to be *vastly* superior for new players (or me!) both for creating PCs - with HotF you can do it without computer support! - and for playing PCs. I'm currently playing an Essentials Rogue, and seeing the new players in the group struggling to play the PHB Warlord and Feypact Warlock, I really wished they'd known to buy Heroes of the Fallen Lands instead for making their PCs. HoTF is vastly better presented, the classes do the same things as in PHB but in much simpler, faster, more intuitive fashion, and it's cheaper. No contest IMO.

You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldnt make a 4e character so instead played 3e. WTF

 

[S'mon]

You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldnt make a 4e character so instead played 3e. WTF

1st level PCs are vastly easier to create in 3e/3.5 than in 4e. Most classes are also much simpler to play. 3e complexity increases rapidly with level, 4e complexity starts very high and increases more slowly.

I guess at this point you don't have much credibility with me, either.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldnt make a 4e character so instead played 3e. WTF

1st level PCs are vastly easier to create in 3e/3.5 than in 4e. Most classes are also much simpler to play. 3e complexity increases rapidly with level, 4e complexity starts very high and increases more slowly.

I guess at this point you don't have much credibility with me, either.

In 3e at 1st level you need to pick a class, a feat, a handful of trained skills (dumping four skill points into each one), some spells, and some equipment.

In 4e, there's first a conceptual leap to everything being a power. Then it's pick a class, a subclass, a feat, a handful of trained skills, two at will powers, an encounter power, and a daily. And some equipment. The PHB from what I remember never really explains why the powers. Yes, it's more complex.

But a couple of hours to create a thief? *blinks* I've done the mechanical part of creating a 7th level cavalier by hand in 10-15 minutes. On a bus. (I wouldn't be that fast with a pre-essentials class by hand although can manage a first level one in five minutes with the character builder). Also aggghhhh on picking a feypact warlock from the PHB as a newbie. Those things are seriously not newbie friendly.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

essentials helps a lot here

 

[S'mon]

But a couple of hours to create a thief? *blinks*

Hi Francis. It was my first time using the book (HotFL) and with crafting Larsenio Roguespierre I wanted to create somebody combat-effective, and avoid traps that would nerf my effectiveness. I was successful - I've been kicking butt pretty nicely in Mark's Punjar Saga game so far, while still being fun to play with good CHA & interaction skills - but it took a fair bit of effort, and I still missed stuff that might have made me more effective; eg the Backstabber feat is legit for the campaign but it's in the PHB not HotFL so I missed it.

It would be much faster making another Rogue, but making a different HotFL PC class from scratch would still take at least 90-100 minutes or so. Nothing like what it would have taken to make a non-Essentials PC back in 2008 though; I tried to make a Wizard and gave up after a few hours.

 

[Obryn]

But a couple of hours to create a thief? *blinks* I've done the mechanical part of creating a 7th level cavalier by hand in 10-15 minutes. On a bus. (I wouldn't be that fast with a pre-essentials class by hand although can manage a first level one in five minutes with the character builder). Also aggghhhh on picking a feypact warlock from the PHB as a newbie. Those things are seriously not newbie friendly.

Well, for a newbie who's also learning the rules as he goes? That's about right.

-O

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, for a newbie who's also learning the rules as he goes? That's about right.

Personal background - S'mon DMs both an OSRIC and a 4e campaign I'm in (the 4e game has been on hiatus for a while) and has played fighter alongside my warlord in another 4e game. I therefore have trouble thinking of him as a newbie so much as an experienced fellow DM I have quite a lot to learn from (I'm an inexperienced DM).

Hi Francis. It was my first time using the book (HotFL) and with crafting Larsenio Roguespierre I wanted to create somebody combat-effective, and avoid traps that would nerf my effectiveness. I was successful - I've been kicking butt pretty nicely in Mark's Punjar Saga game so far, while still being fun to play with good CHA & interaction skills - but it took a fair bit of effort, and I still missed stuff that might have made me more effective; eg the Backstabber feat is legit for the campaign but it's in the PHB not HotFL so I missed it.

It would be much faster making another Rogue, but making a different HotFL PC class from scratch would still take at least 90-100 minutes or so. Nothing like what it would have taken to make a non-Essentials PC back in 2008 though; I tried to make a Wizard and gave up after a few hours.

I think this is a difference of approach As you may have noticed, my PCs are often ... reckless*, and think that good enough now works at least as well as perfect late. And that's partly a reflection of me. I'd have honestly picked stats in a few minutes, skimmed through the tricks and found tactical trick for combat advantage and acrobats trick for the climb speed (ignoring damage considerations) to make me more useful out of combat. Skimmed through the feats and found Light Blade Expertise as my first feat in about five minutes. And I'm not sure what I'd have picked as my final feat. But that would have taken maybe ten minutes, probably less.

* One of my current PCs is not only a bravura warlord getting a lot of mileage out of Brash Assault, he's kissed Glassya. At 5th level.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You lost all credibility with me when you said you couldnt make a 4e character so instead played 3e. WTF

It would do you more credit if you considered the sum total of someones work before drawing a conclusion, rather than jumping to a conclusion on the basis of a single statement.

Your gaming experience will be poorer if you rule out the posts of S'mon without further consideration, he's said a lot of good stuff.

Furthermore, the 'WTF' is pretty rude, so I'd avoid that in the future if I were you.

Thanks

 

[S'mon]

Personal background - S'mon DMs both an OSRIC and a 4e campaign I'm in (the 4e game has been on hiatus for a while) and has played fighter alongside my warlord in another 4e game. I therefore have trouble thinking of him as a newbie so much as an experienced fellow DM I have quite a lot to learn from (I'm an inexperienced DM).

I think this is a difference of approach

Yeah well, I still have nightmares about the first time I played a 4e PC, Rothgar the Fighter (Tom was GMing, at the Meetup). I'd done my best to make a big tough axe fighter, and I looked for suitable feats.

"Now, what does every Fighter need... why, of course: Power Attack!"

Which in 4e is, of course, a complete waste of a feat.

Despite that and several other errors in useless powers & sub-optimal gear (eg battleaxe not war axe - not sure I even had AV), I just about pulled my weight thanks to (a) having read enough to max out STR and not create the kind of more balanced stat array that might have been a better idea in 3e and (b) going for max damage on my encounter & daily powers. So with the high STR I could hit a fair bit, and thus control the battlefield somewhat, and I could hit hard using human Action Surge + an encounter or daily. But it was a close thing and with a couple more mistakes I could easily have embarrassed myself. And that was with the (free version of the) downloadable character builder to help me.

By my standards, taking a couple hours to read HotFL (don't forget reading time!) and put together an effective Essentials PC, was really quite good.

Meanwhile of course the complete newbie 4e players trying to make 4e PCs for Mark's gamr using only the PHB were really struggling - and they're both smart people. I think it's a real shame that WotC have apparently screwed up the marketing again, so that new would-be D&Ders are still going for the 4e PHB and are apparently unaware of the much easier (and IMO better) Essentials books. I guess WotC can't say "The PHB is obsolete" - they probably still have a big stack they hope to sell - but, frankly...

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

In 4e, there's first a conceptual leap to everything being a power. Then it's pick a class, a subclass, a feat, a handful of trained skills, two at will powers, an encounter power, and a daily. And some equipment. The PHB from what I remember never really explains why the powers. Yes, it's more complex.

I don't think it's really much of a leap though. It's about on par with playing a Sorcerer in 3e. Not that hard.

Powers are not that difficult to grasp. It might be a leap coming from an earlier edition of D&D, especially if you weren't big on playing spellcasters, but for a complete noob, I think it's a pretty easy concept to grasp. Certainly easier than, "you can attack, and when you do, you can Trip, Disarm, Fight Defensively, take Total Defence, and if you want to do this you need to make either a Full Attack or a regular Attack," and so on.

4e still has some of that stuff, but has been simplified quite a bit, in my opinion.

I can see how going into it with a 3e mindset though would lead to problems and actually make it harder to play/learn. Some of the stuff that was "good" in 3e is terrible in 4th, and the opposite is also sometimes true.

Also aggghhhh on picking a feypact warlock from the PHB as a newbie. Those things are seriously not newbie friendly.

Tell me about it; that was my first 4e character. Talk about disappointing. I kept trying to figure out why my "striker" was doing such poor damage, and why all my rider effects were terrible. If I ever go back to that game, I am going to have to ask the DM if I can rebuild her, pretty much from scratch.