D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[coyote6]

Funny you should say that. Outside of the forums, I do not know a single role-player IRL who prefers separate cosmologies. They all love the Great Wheel, and feel it is customizable enough to suit any campaign setting. I've even seen people adopt the Great Wheel to other game systems.

<shrug> I don't think I've ever had an out-of-game discussion about the Great Wheel in real life, so I guess I don't know anyone who seems to really care much about D&D's cosmology.

OTOH, I have seen people use bits and pieces of D&D cosmology for other games -- I've done so myself, though it was either just a few pieces (e.g., using the Abyss & the Nine Hells, mainly because I wanted to use particular demon lords or dukes of Hell), it was because I was using a D&D setting (e.g., GURPS Forgotten Realms), or it was more like a Marvel Comics-style cosmology that included all kinds of stuff ("yes, there are the Nine Hells, there's Mt Celestia, and over there is Asgard, and that's World Sea, and that's the Dimension of Angry Hellcrabs").

But that's just my anecdotal personal experience; neither of our personal experiences are terribly likely to be representative as a whole. WotC might've done the market research to know for sure. If Scott Rouse or one of the PTB are reading this, maybe they'll chime in.

 

[William Ronald]

Okay, that seriously rocks.

I know it'll bother fans of the Great Wheel (although I think, at this point, it was already pretty clear the GW wasn't the 4E default), and I can understand their viewpoint. But for me, this sounds just damn cool. I like the more fundamental differences between demons and devils, I like the sound of the Astral Domains and the Elemental Tempest... It's just really evocative in a way that, for me, the Wheel hasn't been in a long time.

I do hope, though, that a project in the relatively near future (be it a Planescape project or something else) provides 4E details on the Great Wheel, as an option for those who prefer it. Given that D&D already supports multiple cosmologies (see: Eberron v. FR v. Great Wheel), I see no reason it can't continue to do so.

It is also relatively easy for DMs to replace Tharzidun with deities appropriate to their campaign, or rule that if they have an alternate cosmology that the one presented as the core cosmology may either actually co-exist or be someone's views of how things are structured. (Perhaps using the Plane of Shadow or the Astral Sea as a way to reach alternate cosmologies -- perhaps hinting at this might be enough.)

 

[catsclaw227]

Funny you should say that. Outside of the forums, I do not know a single role-player IRL who prefers separate cosmologies. They all love the Great Wheel, and feel it is customizable enough to suit any campaign setting. I've even seen people adopt the Great Wheel to other game systems.

And yet, it's highly reviled (particularly of late) here on ENWorld for some reason. DESPITE the fact that Planescape always comes up as the second or third most popular campaign setting (behind FR and GH) in polls on a regular basis.

In my experience, the different cosmologies make the different settings interesting. I like the Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes cosmology for Scarn (Scarred Lands). I used Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous cosmology for my homebrew. And I loved playing with Oathbound's "cosmology" (if you can call it that) for when my homebrew PCs were called by the great flock. I don't even think that the NG "world" used a Great Wheel cosmology, as much as it was a mishmash of different Gods strung together from homebrews and the Wilderlands. Great Wheel is cool for Planescape and even Greyhawk, but its not the cosmology for Eberron.

Basically, I am trying to say that few of the players I know love ONLY the Great Wheel, and most have found alternate cosmologies more interesting.

 

[coyote6]

I wonder if - like the succubus - all the schemer type demons might be moved over into the devil camp? Grazzt may end up being a devil in the next edition, for example.

I wouldn't be surprised; it was the first thing I thought of. Six-fingered dude, carries a sword, schemes a lot -- sounds like he'd fit in the new Nine Hells, as one of Asmodeus's barely-stays-in-line underlings who's always plotting to overthrow the boss.

Or, hey, Graz'zt could be a devil that somehow escaped Hell and is now living in the Abyss. That might be interesting, though it might dilute the "Hell as prison" theme if somebody's already escaped it, yet Asmodeus can't.

 

[Lackhand]

I love the Great Wheel... when I'm in a Planescape-kind of mood.

When I'm not, it just gets in the way, because I don't like Slaad, the positive (or negative) energy planes, the default take on the Astral/Ethereal, or the overly specific, and inapplicable to my settings, layout (of both planes and outsiders).

I generally houserule alignment to match something relevant to the game I'm in, most often a 5 alignment system -- (LG/NG), (LN/LE), (CE/CN/NE), (LN/NN), (NG/NN/CG), with planes to match.
When I don't do that, I've use an Amber-style multiverse, and a Dreamtime (with a few specific skerries of dream).

I don't expect the default settings to match everything I come up with right out of the box, but the closer it can come, the happier everyone will be.

If one wishes to play in Planescape, one should play in Planescape.
One should play in Planescape as often as possible.

And here's hoping the books for that get published ASAP -- possibly 2010?

 

[Orcus]

And maybe, just maybe, somebody is already working on something that involves the elemental planes. Hmmm. I wonder who that could be....

Oh yeah! Me!

Clark

 

[catsclaw227]

It suggests that above the Prime there is the Astral Sea, in which can be found the domains of various deities - including Asmodius' Nine Hells domain.

On the other hand, beneath the Prime is the Elemental Tempest, within which can be found the Abyss wherein demons and perhaps even Tharizdun are contained.

What is interesting most to me in this is that the Elemental Tempest reminds me rather strongly of the 2e Ethereal - the plane between the Prime and the Elemental Planes. I think that perhaps the elements will - instead of distinct planes - be numerous domain-like pockets or demi-planes within the stated Elemental Tempest. Some may be of a single element, while others may be of several elements. It is an interesting design decision. So those that prefer the elemental planes as they currently are will still have (demi-?) planes within the Elemental Tempest that are of a single element - if that is where they wish to adventure, while others will have elemental (demi-?) planes of multiple elements - perhaps even all of them. The latter result may even seem at first glance by visitors to be odd other Primes. Perhaps Primes 'grow' from such seed-planes where all the elements have by chance come together in the Elemental Tempest.

I also find it interesting that Devils are evil-tainted Celestials, while Demons are evil-tainted Elementals. That makes for a rather profound difference, actually. I wonder where it will eventually lead . . . .

The fact that Demons are former elementals - and as such care little about gaining / converting souls (and, in fact, likely seek the destruction of souls, meaning that any souls drawn towards the Abyss are unlikely to - or at least rarely - become demons) also brings about some rather notable (perhaps even extreme) differences and changes to the perception, arrangement, and use of the Abyss in the cosmology.

In addition to the divine realms pocketed like (demi-?)planes amongst the astral sea, I wonder what other planes may exist there. I also wonder what other (demi-?)planes may exist in the Elemental Tempest.

Also, I have noticed that this development will help to easily integrate the third party material from Beyond Countless Doorways and Phil Reed's DM's Directory of Demiplanes.

 

[Rechan]

\Or, hey, Graz'zt could be a devil that somehow escaped Hell and is now living in the Abyss. That might be interesting, though it might dilute the "Hell as prison" theme if somebody's already escaped it, yet Asmodeus can't.

Well the most obvious reason that Asmodeus can't get out is because when he murdered his God, the Plane basically latched onto Asmodeus and said "You're the anchor, baby. You ain't going no where."

In Dante's Inferno, Satan is actually stuck in a hole at the very bottom, unable to crawl out, and all evil radiates Upwards through him. So it might be similar - He's trapped in this prison because he Made it and he's Bound to its very nature.

 

[Pale]

And maybe, just maybe, somebody is already working on something that involves the elemental planes. Hmmm. I wonder who that could be....

Oh yeah! Me!

Clark

And I thank you for it.

 

[Klaus]

Y'know, I fail to see where's all this awesomeness people are raving about.

Devils as plotters/schemers -> Logical extension of them being LE. They have been this way for a long time. In Planescape the devils marched in perfect battallions.

Demons as impulse-driven destroyers -> Logical extension of them being CE. They have been this way for a long time. In Planescape the demons advanced as savage hordes.

Granted, in the past several demons have been portrayed as schemers rather than destroyers, including luminaries such as Grazzt, Lolth, Iuz, Pazuriel and nearly all mariliths. This was mostly because the authors needed to write about some big bad demon and "conniving schemer plotting the downfall of Good" yields more text than "kill kill KILL KILL!!!!".

As for the planes themselves, while it's too ealry to judge anything, I wonder why do we have to get a clear origin for something as mind-bogglingly ancient as the Outer Planes. I mean, the real world has no origin for the Christian/Jewish/Muslim Hell. The Greeks only went as far as to say that Tarterus was the son of Gaea (iirc). The Norse universe was built from Ymir, a frost giant, with no mention of how Ymir came to be. Ditto with the Greek Chaos, who preceded and gave birth to Gaea.

So for me, the descriptions of demons and devils are nothing special, just extrapolations of their traditional philosophies, and the Outer Planes are unnecessarily explained.