D&D 4E 4E in 2008? Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Sanguinemetaldawn
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Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Rasyr said:
3005 to 2003, eh? Talk about speeding up the release of a book...
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Rasyr said:
In my opinion, 10 years is way too long for a new edition or revision. In todays' world where email and message boards makes feedback instantaneous and the coordination of playtesting easier, I feel that new editions should be produced in maybe half the time they were in the past. I don't enjoy the thought of spending more money, believe me, but I do enjoy the thought of seeing the game improved upon in all the ways we've seen online, in OGL and d20 games, and in WotC's own books.
Ranger REG
Explorer
Maybe that is what's wrong with todays' world. I'm getting too old for this.ColonelHardisson said:
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Ranger REG said:
I think we're fairly close in age. Just a guess; I'm 39. I think it's just a matter of taste. As I get older, I find myself being impatient for things to be updated and improved. I think that the speed with which revisions and updates occur for any given thing is one of the things right about today's world. I guess I wanna see everything be as good as possible before I die
. I enjoy seeing things improved upon at a steady rate. Certainly it can be argued as to whether any given change is an improvement, but for the most part in the RPG world, updates and revisions actually bring about real improvements. At least, that's how it seems to me.
I quite agree with Colonel Hardisson - 10 years was far too long to wait for the previous new editions.
How long was there between oD&D and AD&D? Five years, and oD&D was being rapidly changed by each supplement it gained. AD&D pulled all the pieces together into a more coherent game.
The gap between 1e and 2e is interesting because official development on AD&D pretty much stopped for the first few years of AD&D. Unearthed Arcana was the first supplement (1985) that actually changed things - and there were some significant changes in that book. Oriental Adventures brought the next set of big changes, and with the NWP expanded upon in the Dungeon and Wilderness Survival Guides, 2nd edition was suddenly required - although, to my mind, the major flaws in presentation of rules had meant a 2nd edition would have been very welcome several years earlier.
2e revised 1e fairly successfully, although the books were purged of most of the good reading material, and some of the revision of the class abilities leaves much to be desired. Mind you, the actual game mechanics are much cleaner. Unfortunately, immediately thereafter started the Complete Books of *. Several significantly altered the game from the core books.
Of course, once the Player's Option books came out, if you used them you were playing in a different edition, anyway! The Player's Option books, although eventually failing in several areas, do pull together the scattered threads of options that had been developed during the first five years of 2e. D&D had progressed from a game of limited player choices in the method of approach to one of a myriad of available choices.
Pity that the game was now the plaything of min/maxers, powergamers and rules lawyers.
The designers and developers of 3e sat down and tackled the problems that had become apparent in 2e. Choices for players and DMs were considered good, and so were kept, but the structure was dramatically revised so that there actually was a structure to the choices that could be made. Amazingly, the structures of race, class, combat and spell-use are very close to the original D&D.
With 3.5e, holes in the design of 3e were patched. Several of these were significant from a design perspective - work on Savage Species had revealed many holes in 3e. The builder books (Sword and Fist, etc.) had also found holes in the game - or had been badly designed. Just because of the time frame, certain problematic areas couldn't be properly addressed in the revision. You may have seen reference to problems with Metamagic that needed to be fixed, but couldn't be because a great deal of playtesting needed to be done.
Although there may well have been business reasons for the release of 3.5e, there were also some solid design reasons. For one thing, the prestige classes of the builder books could also be revised and made more balanced. That is, either less overpowered or actually useful in the first place. You can see in the early books, especially Sword and Fist, that 3e was still very new to the designers and many mistakes were made in design and development.
I'm also sure that the redesign of the DMG also helped the release of the Environment books. (Sandstorm, etc.)
So, 3.5e is the perfect game, right? No, not at all.
Turn Undead and Metamagic still need to be addressed. Although design killed the problem with rampaging DCs (see Red Wizard and the Spell Focus feats), instead the problem was transferred to Caster Levels. This normally isn't a problem, but there are a couple of spells (see Holy Word) that become ridiculous with high caster levels.
However, in the great scheme of things, these are minor issues, not needing immediate attention.
Will 4e come along? Absolutely.
In my opinion, it won't be as big a change as from 2e to 3e. Most of your 3.5e books will probably work with the new ediiton, although certain areas will be tinkered with. I actually think that 3e->3.5e is a pretty good idea of what 3.5e->4e will be like: some big changes, but mostly minor stuff.
Issues discovered in play and development of new products will be addressed.
And when can we expect this?
At present, I think that 3.5e has enough product ideas to easily make it through 2006. Assuming the worst case scenario, December 2006 ends the current run of D&D products.
During 2007, only a few 3.5e products are released, and design, development and playtesting of 4e gets underway.
Then, in 2008, 4e gets released.
However, if Wizards keeps on coming up with interesting ideas for D&D books, we might see that extended. Or, Wizards might decide that 2007 or 2008 is the right year for a new edition for reasons I haven't seen.
Cheers!
How long was there between oD&D and AD&D? Five years, and oD&D was being rapidly changed by each supplement it gained. AD&D pulled all the pieces together into a more coherent game.
The gap between 1e and 2e is interesting because official development on AD&D pretty much stopped for the first few years of AD&D. Unearthed Arcana was the first supplement (1985) that actually changed things - and there were some significant changes in that book. Oriental Adventures brought the next set of big changes, and with the NWP expanded upon in the Dungeon and Wilderness Survival Guides, 2nd edition was suddenly required - although, to my mind, the major flaws in presentation of rules had meant a 2nd edition would have been very welcome several years earlier.
2e revised 1e fairly successfully, although the books were purged of most of the good reading material, and some of the revision of the class abilities leaves much to be desired. Mind you, the actual game mechanics are much cleaner. Unfortunately, immediately thereafter started the Complete Books of *. Several significantly altered the game from the core books.
Of course, once the Player's Option books came out, if you used them you were playing in a different edition, anyway! The Player's Option books, although eventually failing in several areas, do pull together the scattered threads of options that had been developed during the first five years of 2e. D&D had progressed from a game of limited player choices in the method of approach to one of a myriad of available choices.
Pity that the game was now the plaything of min/maxers, powergamers and rules lawyers.
The designers and developers of 3e sat down and tackled the problems that had become apparent in 2e. Choices for players and DMs were considered good, and so were kept, but the structure was dramatically revised so that there actually was a structure to the choices that could be made. Amazingly, the structures of race, class, combat and spell-use are very close to the original D&D.
With 3.5e, holes in the design of 3e were patched. Several of these were significant from a design perspective - work on Savage Species had revealed many holes in 3e. The builder books (Sword and Fist, etc.) had also found holes in the game - or had been badly designed. Just because of the time frame, certain problematic areas couldn't be properly addressed in the revision. You may have seen reference to problems with Metamagic that needed to be fixed, but couldn't be because a great deal of playtesting needed to be done.
Although there may well have been business reasons for the release of 3.5e, there were also some solid design reasons. For one thing, the prestige classes of the builder books could also be revised and made more balanced. That is, either less overpowered or actually useful in the first place. You can see in the early books, especially Sword and Fist, that 3e was still very new to the designers and many mistakes were made in design and development.
I'm also sure that the redesign of the DMG also helped the release of the Environment books. (Sandstorm, etc.)
So, 3.5e is the perfect game, right? No, not at all.
Turn Undead and Metamagic still need to be addressed. Although design killed the problem with rampaging DCs (see Red Wizard and the Spell Focus feats), instead the problem was transferred to Caster Levels. This normally isn't a problem, but there are a couple of spells (see Holy Word) that become ridiculous with high caster levels.
However, in the great scheme of things, these are minor issues, not needing immediate attention.
Will 4e come along? Absolutely.
In my opinion, it won't be as big a change as from 2e to 3e. Most of your 3.5e books will probably work with the new ediiton, although certain areas will be tinkered with. I actually think that 3e->3.5e is a pretty good idea of what 3.5e->4e will be like: some big changes, but mostly minor stuff.
Issues discovered in play and development of new products will be addressed.
And when can we expect this?
At present, I think that 3.5e has enough product ideas to easily make it through 2006. Assuming the worst case scenario, December 2006 ends the current run of D&D products.
During 2007, only a few 3.5e products are released, and design, development and playtesting of 4e gets underway.
Then, in 2008, 4e gets released.
However, if Wizards keeps on coming up with interesting ideas for D&D books, we might see that extended. Or, Wizards might decide that 2007 or 2008 is the right year for a new edition for reasons I haven't seen.
Cheers!
Ranger REG
Explorer
Then I get three more years left.MerricB said:
MerricB said:
I hope so, part of the reason that I don't want to see 4e is because it doesn't seem like there is a need for it like there was with the previous editions. IF 4e comes and it is relatively backwards compatable, I guess, I could deal with it then. I just don't want to fix something that isn't to badly broken and pay for it to.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
D-rock said:
I agree with this. The new edition I await would be more of a polish and reorganization than a ground-up overhauling of the game. It would also be nice to see the issue of modularity addressed - for example, breaking down combat into 2 or 3 levels of complexity, so that everyone can pick and choose just how detailed combat is in their game. Making it so that it's all backwards-compatible with 3.5 would be important to me also.
I think the likelihood of a complete overhaul for 4e is very unlikely.
There isn't the need!
3e needed a big overhaul because the evolution of RPGs (and D&D in particular) had been towards more (modular) options, something that the 1e structure didn't support well at all.
4e will change some of the details, but I can't see the structure changing much at all.
Cheers!
There isn't the need!
3e needed a big overhaul because the evolution of RPGs (and D&D in particular) had been towards more (modular) options, something that the 1e structure didn't support well at all.
4e will change some of the details, but I can't see the structure changing much at all.
Cheers!
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