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4E is for casuals, D&D is d0med

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
Family said:
1.) This particular comic was not.
2.) There's lots of room!

Tallarn said:
3) I thought that comic was pretty funny, actually. :)

The comic wasn't funny. It was classic B^U - too many panels, overexplained humor, and really stupid strawman arguments. The only reason you like the comic is because it attempts to make fun of people who dislike 4e (When in reality all it does is make 4e supporters look really silly).

And to top it all off, it's completely off base. In everything. Hell, one of the COMPLAINTS about 4e is that you're fighting dragons at level 1.

Hey, free of charge, I'll post that comic again, only this time, it'll be funnier AND more honest!

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The Little Raven

First Post
ProfessorCirno said:
The only reason you like the comic is because it attempts to make fun of people who dislike 4e (When in reality all it does is make 4e supporters look really silly).

This sounds awfully like you're ascribing a motivation or belief to another poster, which is against the forum rules.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Well, 3e did have that whole "sliding scale" thing, in theory. It was as complex as you wanted it to be, because you could always simplify and abstract things out -- part of the idea was that it would be easier to simplify something complex than it would be to complexify something relatively simple (if you were looking for that complexity). Because Wizards, at the time, didn't want to tell you what kind of game to run, they would do all the "hard work" and leave you to make it easier if you wanted (which should be pretty easy!).

That was the promise. In practice, a combination of fans who were gaga over the complexity and a failure to deliver in all areas of that promise (like with accounting for treasure and in high-level play) meant that 3e ended up carrying the "complex" tag even slightly further than previous editions, probably, with its "place for everything and everything in its place" ideal.

3e wasn't trying to be the PS3 or even the Xbox 360. It was more like it was trying to be a home computer, like a Linux PC: something that worked well that you could tinker with endlessly. It was, at best, trying to be quintessential D&D. Take all the bits from the past, and reassemble it in a way that made it work like it was always kind of supposed to from the beginning.

In many respects, it succeeded wildly at that goal. Not that it didn't still have its problems, but its problems were things that D&D had ALWAYS struggled with (high level play, complexity, blah blah blah). These problems weren't un-solvable, and they didn't require all of 4e's fiery burnination to accomplish, but heck, if you need a new edition anyway, why not solve those problems with it. With the hammer of 4e, every problem looked like a nail, after all.

4e doesn't want to be quintessential D&D, at all. It doesn't want to be a ruleset that you take and play with as you like. Not even a little. It wants you to play, not tinker. In pursuit of that goal, it becomes not just simpler, but simplistic. The comparison to the Wii is apt, though we're still lacking the Development Kit for 4e. It's not a ruleset that lets you do what you want, its a ruleset that gives you what it thinks you want. And, given WotC's famous ability for market research, its probably right, more often than not.

3e wasn't the PS3, or the Xbox 360. 3e was a hacker's computer. 4e is kind of like the Wii, but the comparison looses some momentum in that the Wii isn't replacing anyone's computer, while 4e is replacing 3e (at least for WotC, if not for everyone).

To imagine the rage of the 3e fans, imagine if, for instance, you had to write your ENWorld post using the Wii's Internet channel and that little on-screen keyboard. If you had to buy a Dev Kit to program it. If, every time you wanted to IM a friend, you would need four sets of codes that could only be acquired offline to identify their machine, your machine, their IMing program, and yours. Imagine if you would have to buy one of Nintendo's $30 perhiphials shaped like a shopping cart to use Amazon.

This is part of the reason some of the 3e fans are ardently against 4e. It's not (just) that 4e isn't something their not interested in. Its that 4e means that something they ARE interested in is in danger of becoming so small, so niche, and so pigeonholed that, like most earlier editions, it becomes harder to actually get people to play it. And without a community, any table-top game is dead in the water.

Luckily, the excitement for Pathfinder means that, at least for another year or two, 3e can probably hold out, and can maybe even drift alongside 4e, informing it as it goes. It is, after all, the Open Source D&D.

I think my reaction to 4e is something akin to a hacker looking at an iPhone. It has some neat features I want, but it also locks me into some things I absolutely don't want (minis-heavy combat, weird PC/NPC/Monster interactions, bland repetitive abilities, etc) So I'll tinker with it, beat it around, void my warranty, and, in the end, do what I want with it. I think that WotC is infinitely smarter than Apple in that they basically encourage you do to that, even though the game doesn't really want you to do that.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Doug McCrae said:
I disagree with your idea that the 90s was the decade of increased complexity.
Agreed.

Doug McCrae said:
A far more likely hypothesis is that by far and away 4e's main target audience is fans of 3e. It was created by doing market research to find out what the flaws were with that system. The results highlighted issues such as class balance and SoDs, which 4e fixes.
I'd add - I think that 4e has also been influenced by some trends in game design that have so far been influential more in boutique or indie games, but that the designers think could be have more widespread appeal if adapted into an already-popular fantasy RPG. My reasons for thinking this are (i) the influences are pretty plain to see and (ii) Rob Heinsoo basically said as much in an interview, when he compared 4e in certain respects to indie RPGs.

I thus think that the 4e design is a combination of giving the market what it knows it wants, and giving the market what the designers believe the market will want once it has been exposed to it.
 

pemerton

Legend
KM, we've talked around a lot of this stuff a fair bit and obviously have quite different takes on a lot of things about 4e in particular, and RPGs more generally. So I'll just pick up on a couple of the points you made to try and offer one alternative perspective.

Kamikaze Midget said:
4e doesn't want to be quintessential D&D, at all. It doesn't want to be a ruleset that you take and play with as you like. Not even a little. It wants you to play, not tinker. In pursuit of that goal, it becomes not just simpler, but simplistic.
I don't entirely agree with your first sentence here, because "quintessential D&D" is too hard to pin down. If quintessential D&D is White Plume Mountain and the Ghost Tower of Inverness then 3E didn't deliver it either, because those modules only work on the assumption that action resolution is primarily a matter of direct player-GM interaction rather than the application of game mechanics.

But if quintessential D&D means high fantasy action with a high body count and little grittiness, than 4e looks like it does deliver.

If quintessential D&D means rules tinkering, then I agree that 4e is different from all earlier editions. But I don't think that rules tinkering - which is the passtime of a minority of GMs - is really quintessential to any RPGing experience. Play is what is quintessential, and every edition of D&D has delivered quite a different play experience from the earlier one.

As to 4e being simplistic, I don't see that at all. It has 400+ pages of subtly-crafted powers. Well-designed, yes. Simplistic, no. I think you might be confusing elegance of design - which makes the game rules fairly easy to take in - with being simple to play. As Imaro has noticed with his chess/checkers analogy, there is no reason to think that playing 4e is a simplistic experience.

(Of the mainstream RPGs that I'm familiar with, the only ones I might be tempted to label simplistic in play are Basic D&D played in a certain spirit, and Tunnels and Trolls - but I'm sure that's doing both games a disservice.)

Kamikaze Midget said:
bland repetitive abilities
When I look at 4e I have to say I don't see bland repetitive abilities. I see a wide range of complex interactions between rather evocative abilities. Not that the rules text is evocative - I don't need it to be, as the fun will come in play, not reading (in this respect 4e reminds me a little of ICE games, which have bland rules text but produce very evocative play, and it is the opposite of 2nd ed AD&D, which has reasonably evocative rules text but in my experience tends to produce rather bland play). But looking at the powers and imaging the sort of play they might deliver, I get the sense that it would be fun and exciting play.
 


ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
First off, good lord, that was an amazing post Kamakazi Midget. I dunno what to add. Well, there is this:

pemerton said:
When I look at 4e I have to say I don't see bland repetitive abilities. I see a wide range of complex interactions between rather evocative abilities. Not that the rules text is evocative - I don't need it to be, as the fun will come in play, not reading (in this respect 4e reminds me a little of ICE games, which have bland rules text but produce very evocative play, and it is the opposite of 2nd ed AD&D, which has reasonably evocative rules text but in my experience tends to produce rather bland play). But looking at the powers and imaging the sort of play they might deliver, I get the sense that it would be fun and exciting play.

I ahve to disagree. Trudging through the lists of powers was boring and painful. They all start to melt together. Ok, one does damage + wisdom, the other does damage + charisma, but it's still the same thing. Occasionally you'd see an ability that shifted you or an opponent. Maybe one gave them one of the ten trillion marks we'll need in combat.

But they were still all very...what's the word? Same-y? Like I said, they really started to melt together for me.
 



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