D&D 4E 4E PHB II & DMG II 1 year after release (and a new one every year after that)

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Because those are some tried and tested archetypes that are successful in MMO gameplay?

EQ1 != the entirety of MMO design, even back then

More importantly, taking the EQ1 model and trying to contort the superhero genre to fit it made for a really unsatisfying game. (Hence Cryptic's regular free "come back and play, PLEEEEEEASE" weekends.)

In CoX, approximately one superhero or supervillain in six or seven has healing powers, which doesn't resemble comics in the least -- heck, there may only BE six or seven superheroes with healing powers total.

Terrible way to do design. Start with the genre you want to emulate and build the rules there. Instead, Cryptic started with a ruleset and forced the genre to (sort of) fit.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

EQ1 != the entirety of MMO design, even back then

I never said it did, please don't put words in my mouth. I said that those arch types were successful in the MMO genre; which they were (and still are). EQ was the most successful American MMO of it's day, and WoW is now the most successful subscription based MMO in the world by leaps and bounds.

More importantly, taking the EQ1 model and trying to contort the superhero genre to fit it made for a really unsatisfying game. (Hence Cryptic's regular free "come back and play, PLEEEEEEASE" weekends.)

No, I think you'll find that people just got tired of a game that was absolutely nothing but MMO combat; especially when compared to (slightly) more varied games of the same genre.

In CoX, approximately one superhero or supervillain in six or seven has healing powers, which doesn't resemble comics in the least -- heck, there may only BE six or seven superheroes with healing powers total.

Terrible way to do design. Start with the genre you want to emulate and build the rules there. Instead, Cryptic started with a ruleset and forced the genre to (sort of) fit.

But it's not a comic, it's a video game inspired by comics. The videogame part takes precedence. If it's accurate to comic books, but it not a good game, then no one will play it. (See my point about nothing but combat; That pretty much fits with the comic ideas, but IMO, provided for a game that got boring after 20 or so levels)

Additionally, as an MMO, they need to do certain things a certain way in order to attract those people. Without a healer class; all those MMO players (i.e. the people who have proven that they're willing to shell out 15 bucks a month; i.e. the core audience) who like playing Healer classes are going to take one look at your game and decide "meh." We could have a debate over the monthly fee locking MMO's into certain veins of gameplay (of which, I'd probably agree with you) but there it is.

Also, your reasoning in arbitrary. CoX takes place in it's own universe, and maybe in that universe there's a lot more heroes with healing powers than in the Marvel or DC universes. Again, gameplay takes precedence, because without that, a game fails at it's primary purpose, and noone will play it. And an MMO that no one plays is an MMO that dies.

 

[Mercule]

I have to say something about this line - because I was mulling it over and this just sounds weird to me.

I don't see how this would work. Are you saying that when you initially get the game it's intentionally "broken" so that you can only use it with updates from Wizards? Or are you saying that the game is just fine when you buy it, but if you choose not to subscribe to the electronic service the game deteriorates into something unusable?

It's a straw-man. There seem to be a gaggle of people who are convinced that arguing in an Internet forum that they're screwed because they don't have Internet access is a tenable argument.

They also insist that they will be paying in perpetuity for any online content, despite direct and explicit statements from WotC that DDI content will be downloadable and usable, even if you drop your subscription.

And, of course, that we are being forced to pay for what used to be free wizards.com material. Again, this is despite explicit statements that there will still be free content, including, but not limited to, FAQs, errata, and most of what was already free. In fairness, wizards.com has had some odd blips of late that are making it hard to get at some things.

Plus, I think there are still a few people who take migrating Dragon and Dungeon to an online format as a personal affront. I don't understand how the same kinds of articles, written by the same general pool of people, about the same game, and offered at a lower price can be a bad thing, but that's just me. I would be very, very interested to see how many of the same people have complained that WotC should be offering more PDF products, though.

Besides, there are also people who accuse WotC of being money-grubbing, goat ers (I don't even know what a "er" is, but the filter apparently does) because they don't immediately release everything to the SRD where it can be accessed for free.

I actually think that the "DDI is evil" firebrands tend to marginalize themselves because they outright ignore reality. How long can you take seriously someone who carries on like this:

Firebrand: DDI sucks. You won't be able to play 4E without it.
WotC: Actually, DDI will be about as important to 4E as Dragon and Dungeon were to 3E.
Firebrand: Yeah, but all the errata will be for pay.
WotC: Nope. We'll release that for free.
F: But all the sourcebooks will be DDI only.
W: We'll continue to put out hardcovers on a regular basis.
F: DDI killed Dragon and we'll never be able to refer to "rember issue 151" again.
W: Um... Dragon 151 comes out in October. The articles will be from the same author pool that wrote recent Dragons.
F: But the core books won't work without DDI.
W: The core books will contain a full set of rules.
F: DDI still sucks, and you're greedy bastards.
W: DDI isn't required to play 4E.
F: Is too.
W: Um...
F: Hah! See, you admit it.
W: ...
F: No come back to that one, eh?
W: I'm outta here.
F: That's right walk away because you know I'm right!

Anyway, that's pretty much what I've gotten out of the last week.

 

[Vlos]

I have to say something about this line - because I was mulling it over and this just sounds weird to me.

I don't see how this would work. Are you saying that when you initially get the game it's intentionally "broken" so that you can only use it with updates from Wizards? Or are you saying that the game is just fine when you buy it, but if you choose not to subscribe to the electronic service the game deteriorates into something unusable?

I don't see how either of these are feasible. It's a book not an MMORPG. If the game functions when you buy it, it's still going to function later on when you go back to play again. You may not have the "newest hotness" in the game, but the game itself will still be sitting there, on your shelf, ready to play the next time you get interested. And it will, of necessity, be exactly the same game it was when you put it on the shelf.

I'm curious as to what you mean by that sentence, because for the life of me I can't see a situation where the game would become unplayable if you stopped subscribing to their electronic stuff.

Yes.

When I pay $120 or buy three books that contain PrC or monsters etc, I expect that I can use that book when ever I want to. So a year from now when I no longer want to pay WoTC their monthly subscription fee. What do I have to show for it?

?

?

Nothing?

I only have my three(3) core books? No additional PrC that all my new characters are built on, that I designed over the year, my new monsters with cool abilities. I can't reference any of the abilities, because I no longer want to pay WoTC their fee just so I can play MY game.

So Can I continue to play MY GAME?

?

?

NO.

Because it is no longer my game. I do not own the material that I spent my money on. It is loaded ONLY on DDI. It was a subscription that I no longer have access to that, thus all the Special PrC abilities or rules etc I can not reference because I don't to pay them any longer. It is now a subscription to play... If you see it any other way, you are wrong.

I can only play with my three(3)... count them again... three(3) core books.

 

[Mercule]

When I pay $120 or buy three books that contain PrC or monsters etc, I expect that I can use that book when ever I want to. So a year from now when I no longer want to pay WoTC their monthly subscription fee. What do I have to show for it?

Um... a bunch of PDFs you've downloaded?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Yes.
Because it is no longer my game. I do not own the material that I spent my money on. It is loaded ONLY on DDI. It was a subscription that I no longer have access to that, thus all the Special PrC abilities or rules etc I can not reference because I don't to pay them any longer. It is now a subscription to play... If you see it any other way, you are wrong.

I can only play with my three(3)... count them again... three(3) core books.

Are you aware of either English, reading comprehension or logic? Any concept that businesses know that customer goodwill is the number one way to milk them of as much money as possible?

What about your physical books will break without a DDI subscription? Nothing.
What about the downloadable PDFs will break? ((Possibly something. I suspect it will me long-term use drm or watermarking, but I concede they might do time limts.))

Is your problem that Dragon and Dungeon will be PDF only?
Is your problem that you have bought into an overzealous sales pitch and have been convinced you NEED DnDI like many bought into DnD Minis?

 

[Jer]

Yes.

When I pay $120 or buy three books that contain PrC or monsters etc, I expect that I can use that book when ever I want to. So a year from now when I no longer want to pay WoTC their monthly subscription fee. What do I have to show for it?

?

?

Nothing?

I only have my three(3) core books? No additional PrC that all my new characters are built on, that I designed over the year, my new monsters with cool abilities. I can't reference any of the abilities, because I no longer want to pay WoTC their fee just so I can play MY game.

So Can I continue to play MY GAME?

?

?

NO.

Because it is no longer my game. I do not own the material that I spent my money on. It is loaded ONLY on DDI. It was a subscription that I no longer have access to that, thus all the Special PrC abilities or rules etc I can not reference because I don't to pay them any longer. It is now a subscription to play... If you see it any other way, you are wrong.

I can only play with my three(3)... count them again... three(3) core books.

Okay, I'm incredibly confused. I don't think I understand what you're saying at all.

How, exactly, is Wizards locking away the prestige classes and cool monsters that you create yourself? Won't you keep a local hard copy if you know that someday you won't be subscribing to the service anymore? I certainly would - heck I keep printed hard copies of prestige classes that I have written up in Word just in case my hard drive crashes.

How, exactly, is Wizards forcing you to subscribe to DDI? I'm certainly not going to subscribe to it (I'm morally opposed to spending money on "access" to material in any form, so I don't do it). So I have no worries - any 4e material I own will be on my shelf and ready to use any time I feel like it.

So I really don't understand your argument at all - at the end of the year you'll still have any books you've bought just like with 3e. The only differences are that now there's a new option of subcribing to a service with extra (note that word EXTRA - not REQUIRED) stuff on it. You can chose to do it or not - I will choose NOT myself - but the game is still there whether you subscribe to the service or not.

 

[Jer]

First, for the record, I never agreed with or disagreed with Devyn's statement. What I disagree with is the fact that Devyn is talking about the trustworthiness or lack thereof of a company, a singular entity...and mouse seems to want to imply he is questioning the integrity of particular people. When they make comments or statements in their capacity as representatives of WotC, they are being paid to represent that corporation in the manner which those who run said corporation expect them to. Whether it is true or false cannot be properly ascertained until actual action is taken. Until then I see no problem with an opinion(negative or positive) on what they will do from each individuals perspective.

Except that they ARE people, who know what direction their company is taking and they ARE making statements. Either those statements are true or they are false. They are in a direct position to know the veracity of these statements. If they are false they are lying. They aren't absolved from being liars just because they "work for a company" that expects them to answer in certain ways - the only thing an honest person could answer in that regard is "no comment" or "I can't really talk about that yet."

But I also agree with Ari - if someone is basing their postings on the a priori idea that the designers are lying to us then there's no point in having a discussion at all other than one about whether or not the designers are lying to us. Everything we know about the new edition comes from the same designers who are telling us that DDI won't be required. What kind of productive conversation can you have if you go in with the assumption that they're lying about some things and not about others? Why not take them at their word until some kind of proof comes up that they're lying?

 

[Aristotle]

'kay, I held my replies until I finished the thread.

They indicated that PHB2 would provide three new sources, one of which will be psionic. I have no idea what the other sources might be, but I would imagine we will see things like pacts and maybe even steam/technology in the future (making the gnomes more like the Krynn tinkers would fit well with that last idea).

Pure specualation on my part, but I wonder if this means that the DMG and MM sequels will be themed along the same lines as the PHB... with many psionic monsters in MM2 and the like.

This has taken a concept I was absolutely hating on and turned it into something I am looking forward to. I love the idea of using power sources to define each iteration of core material. Of course they will likely do spalt books each year which expand upon that core. I like the idea of setting up the power sources, races, and classes to support a newly released campaign setting each year. I'd especially like this if the campaign settings were formatted as bibles, having a great deal of information and not needed excessive supplements (some are certainly okay). Oh and I love the idea of using "technology" as a power source and placing gnomes in that product. You don't have to pick a technology powered class for your gnome, but I've always loved the idea of a tinker gnome. Warforged might work in that book too.

Actually, while not being against that, I'd really like the online part (D&Di) to become the spell compendium. And class compendium. And feat compendium. And race compendium.

Once again, I've been questioning my personal need for D&Di and you've given me an excellent perspective.

Man, if there is just one thread in this forum a developer sees and takes to heart... I hope it's this one.

 

[Umbran]

If you see it any other way, you are wrong.

I'm going to ask you to tone down the rhetoric there just a touch - right now we have a week's worth of short descriptions, rumors, and speculation. That's not exactly enough to claim sure knowledge of right and wrong. The final products, services, and policies aren't set in stone.

Are you aware of either English, reading comprehension or logic? Any concept that businesses know that customer goodwill is the number one way to milk them of as much money as possible?

And are you aware of the rules of this board, any concept that sideways insults to people's intelligence are still insults? I'm going to ask you to turn the rhetoric way, way down...


Folks, in general - the rule is PLAY NICE. If you can't, I advise you hold your tongue, or else we won't give you further choice in the matter.