D&D 3E/3.5 4E reminded me how much I like 3E

[BryonD]

Actually no - wizards get scribe scroll for free at 1st level - so no feat required there.

And sorry, if you don't think the versatility of scribing scrolls is problematic - you haven't seen enough mages in play.

It is still a feat. And what exactly did I say about the versatility that is false?
Imp clearly stated RAW. Scribe Scroll is quite nice. But it isn't a problem and if it has been for you then you've seen to many wizards that run roughshod over you and play fast and loose with RAW.

Scribe scroll is good. But it has never been problematic for me. (a theme is forming)

 

[Mort]

It is still a feat. And what exactly did I say about the versatility that is false?

Since it's free for wizards it's more a class ability - the fact that others (clerics, bards, sorcerers) must spend a feat is not relevant.

Imp clearly stated RAW. Scribe Scroll is quite nice. But it isn't a problem and if it has been for you then you've seen to many wizards that run roughshod over you and play fast and loose with RAW.

Scribe scroll is good. But it has never been problematic for me. (a theme is forming)

LOL - the assumptions you make are staggering - that I've been on the "losing end" of a player abusing the rules and am therefore somehow bitter about it?

In point of fact I realized how ridiculously over the top scribe scroll combined with a wizard can be when I was playing the wizard and how unfair I could be to the other players.

There's no need to "run roughshod" over the RAW; that implies some kind of non-intended perverted usage of the rules when using the rules exactly as written is quite bad enough.

 

[Hussar]

To be honest, I never thought of "flaw" as a loaded term. To me, it simply means a failure in the system. Not necessarily a fatal one, but, still something that causes problems.

Hrm, not sure what term to use in its place actually. :/

I like the idea of spells giving skill bonuses. That makes a great deal of sense. Also allows for improved versions of the spell later down the line. It doesn't make much sense that knock has equal chances with a DC 20 or DC 100 lock. It automatically succeeds. You could instead, make Knock like the Find Traps spell and give a skill bonus. Improved Knock would give a greater skill bonus, and so on.

I kinda like this solution.

 

[Imp]

Imp clearly stated RAW. Scribe Scroll is quite nice. But it isn't a problem

It hasn't been a problem for me either, but that's because I made it not a problem, by making it more expensive and less convenient. Similar to other item creation.

I don't actually agree with AllisterH that this is a totally irreducible issue – casters have to make their choices, zap things or enhance their allies so's the monsters aren't totally up in their business all the time.

FWIW I generally like the workings of 3e and can't get into 4e, though in my experience buffs eventually get complicated, magic as per RAW is too convenient for my tastes, and there are other annoyances. I am not a hater but I am not particularly religious about the books either.


... also I like spells providing skill bonuses, may house knock to be a (randomized?) skill bonus, and I'm still not sure why 4e classes have restricted skill sets at all, it seems like you can open up a lot of class-design space that way. But maybe that's bad somehow.

 

[Ahglock]

Hold Person in 2e was absolutely vile. It lasted tens of minutes and you can kill any helpless person in one round in 2e. Casted against a single target, they got a -4 on their saves to boot.

Ultimate party killing spell.

Hell, Sleep had no saving throw, affected 2d4 hit dice worth of targets up to 4+1 hit dice and a casting time of 1 segment. Nice having a 1st level death spell.

The balancing factor here, of course, was the fact that you couldn't craft scrolls easily (at least until about 6th level for clerics, I forget for wizards - 9th?) and you have very, very few spell slots per day. Add to this very slow leveling in 2e (no xp for gp) and you were generally playing wizards from 1st to about 10th most of the time.

It does work, after a fashion. But, it also tends to mean that wizards spend a lot of time watching fights, particularly at lower levels.

Yeah hold person was a great anti party spell though it was not nearly as cool for the party. Its "person" limit usually meant either leveled characters(somewhat rare) or sucker humanoids. While it and sleep were cool for taking out orcs, it usually was quick clearing the one hit brigade. It kind of was like area of effect vs minion in 4e.

There were outlier cases where you held a 10th level fighter or something, but usually when fighting somehting like that they had gear that helped to make there saves a rare fail, even at -4. Perosnally I think outlier cases add a spark of fun to a game though. So when you get to go woo-hoo I took down the fighter in one spell, that is cool.

In 2e it was more of an outlier due to saves working more in favor of defense than offense as you leveld. And I This was esecially true due to fast low level leveling and incredibly slow, heck painfully slow leveling at mid to high levels.

Now in somewhat non-standard campaigns where the focus was humanoids and not drow humanoids hold person was devastating. But a campaign that focussed on minions would make AoEs devastating in 4e.

 

[resistor]

Which is an aspect of system mastery.

Haha. That's a good one.

Seriously, my players have precisely zero system mastery. I periodically have to remind the fighter than she can, y'know, use some of those feats she has. And the cleric still doesn't understand how spell save DC's work.

No, they do it because it's more fun and makes them feel more productive than out of any real system mastery.

 

[resistor]

In 3e, you can do both. Scrolls & wands are easy to make or buy, ill-suited to combat magic (because of caster level & DC), and perfect for utility spells that you'll never know when you need it. So you prepare combat spells and put the rest into consumables.

My players suffer from a mortal allergy to consumable magic items. They won't touch them with a 10' pole, claiming that their a waste of money and/or XP.

 

[Mort]

My players suffer from a mortal allergy to consumable magic items. They won't touch them with a 10' pole, claiming that their a waste of money and/or XP.

This combined with your previous post is probably a good reason you've never had an issue with wizards overshadowing other classes. The money and xp most consumable items cost to make are a pittance compared to their usefulness.

 

[resistor]

This combined with your previous post is probably a good reason you've never had an issue with wizards overshadowing other classes. The money and xp most consumable items cost to make are a pittance compared to their usefulness.

I never said it was a wise allergy.

 

[Mort]

I never said it was a wise allergy.

And I never said it was necessarily a bad thing. It makes your job as DM quite a bit easier because your usually facing a known quantity (no chance of the group going crazy with the consumables and turning a difficult encounter into an easy one, for example).