D&D 3E/3.5 4E reminded me how much I like 3E

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's only automatic if 1) you prepared it 2) you have uses left 3) it hasn't been countermeasured.

Knock gets ONE door open. One spell slot that could be filled doing something the rogue CAN'T do repetitively.

Come on. Not to belabor the point, but: Scrolls and Wands.

As soon as the wizard hits 3rd level, he's making scrolls of Knock. That's just smart play.

 

[Mort]

Posted a poll on the subject if anyone cares.

You're absolutely right. If you need a safe scout, Arcane Eye just can't be beat.

But it still can't backstab a guard for you.

Which is why these arguments to the tune of "X trumps Y" fall flat on their face to me. D&D is a team game; the classes should ALL have room and opportunities to contribute.

Exactly, which is why it's a problem when one class so clearly steps on the toes of another.

Which of those uses should be heeded is another matter.

If you try the break the parameters of a spell and make it do something it shouldn't do, like summon an Orca to crush you're opponent, the GMs answer should still be "no".

If you are allowing spells the same flexibility skills have, I daresay the problem isn't the spell, but the GM.

ok so the wizard summons a bear to maul/and or distract the opponent - how is the rogue faring better on the "crush the oppent front"?

It's only automatic if 1) you prepared it 2) you have uses left 3) it hasn't been countermeasured.

How often does a skill like pick locks come up 2-3 times per adventure tops - a wand of knock has 50 charges. Even if it's really often, you then just save it for the locks the rogue can't pick (too high DC or bad rolls) and then, guess what, you've marginalised the rogue.

Knock gets ONE door open. One spell slot that could be filled doing something the rogue CAN'T do repetitively.

Well yes, but how often does it come up and how well can he do it. At 3rd level a wizard can bypass an amazing (DC 40) lock - what level does the rogue have to be to even have a shot at that?

 

[Psion]

Come on. Not to belabor the point, but: Scrolls and Wands.

As soon as the wizard hits 3rd level, he's making scrolls of Knock. That's just smart play.

"Not to belabor the point", but see the part where I confess that open locks is probably too narrow to be its own skill, or we wouldn't even be having this argument.

Nonetheless: you are spending money on expendable magic to do what the rogue would do for free?

 

[Hussar]

Injecting a personal annecdote here.

Just finished a 60 session campaign. We had a chime of opening. Used the last charge in the very last session.

Just sayin'

I'd agree though that Open Lock is far too narrow. Rolling it up with Disable Device seems like a fair compromise.

Sure, Arcane Eye can't backstab the guard, but, I can use Arcane Eye to allow me to teleport the entire group past the guard, completely avoiding the encounter. What can the rogue do? Sure, HE can sneak past the guard, but, that doesn't help the rest of the party. Heck, arcane eye+teleport is a poor mans Scry/Buff/Teleport. Arcane Eye+Dimension Door (both 4th level, so available for wands) is WAY better than a rogue.

Heh, sell your rogue and buy wands?

 

[Psion]

Exactly, which is why it's a problem when one class so clearly steps on the toes of another.

That does not follow from what you quoted.

Need a safe scout: arcane eye.
Need to take out a guard quietly: the rogue.

2 tasks, 2 opportunities.

ok so the wizard summons a bear to maul/and or distract the opponent - how is the rogue faring better on the "crush the oppent front"?

Wait, what? Since when is it the job for the rogue to "crush the opponent"?

Summoning a bear as a distraction is a great use for the spell. Trying to extract falling damage from an orca summoned as part of a spell (an entry in the spell that is meant to be useless outstide of an aquatic environment) is not a fair use for the spell and the answer the gm should provide for that "clever" (read: abusive) use of the spell should be "no."

How often does a skill like pick locks come up 2-3 times per adventure tops - a wand of knock has 50 charges.

Oh, I could name a few published adventures. And you are still spending money on something the rogue can do for free?

And still, the central problem here is that open locks is too narrow.

Well yes, but how often does it come up and how well can he do it. At 3rd level a wizard can bypass an amazing (DC 40) lock - what level does the rogue have to be to even have a shot at that?

If you as the GM are plopping DC 40 locks into the game with a low level rogue and a wand happy wizard, you are contriving the screw the rogue. Accordingly, I blame you.

 

[Starbuck_II]

"Not to belabor the point", but see the part where I confess that open locks is probably too narrow to be its own skill, or we wouldn't even be having this argument.

Nonetheless: you are spending money on expendable magic to do what the rogue would do for free?

To be fair, the Rogues takes a couple minutes at best. He can fail.

Knock is 100% of time 1 round at most.

 

[Psion]

I'd agree though that Open Lock is far too narrow. Rolling it up with Disable Device seems like a fair compromise.

Glad we agree on this.

Sure, Arcane Eye can't backstab the guard, but, I can use Arcane Eye to allow me to teleport the entire group past the guard, completely avoiding the encounter. What can the rogue do? Sure, HE can sneak past the guard, but, that doesn't help the rest of the party. Heck, arcane eye+teleport is a poor mans Scry/Buff/Teleport. Arcane Eye+Dimension Door (both 4th level, so available for wands) is WAY better than a rogue.

Now you are throwing more magic at the problem (assuming limitless spell-slots) and assuming that this "problem" occurs in a vacuum; what about the NEXT obstacle you need to overcome with stealth. And that's that many more spells you won't be able to cast doing other things when you reach your destination.

 

[Psion]

To be fair, the Rogues takes a couple minutes at best. He can fail.

Knock is 100% of time 1 round at most.

Are you attempting to slant the facts here? Open locks is a full round action. And yes, he can fail at a single check. With "a couple of minutes", he can take 20, and won't fail unless, really, the GM intended it.

But the course of this discussion is showing this whole case that is being made tries to take a single case where a narrow skill intersects an absolute (if narrow) spell and extrapolates that to make the case that AT LARGE, rogues get marginalized. Rogues get 8+int skills per level, folks.

If this is really the way things go in your 3e game, and the GM is unwilling to house rule either or both the open locks skill or knock, then the rogue should be taking few or no ranks in open lock. Of course, the wizard might resent being consigned to be the lock monkey.

 

[Hussar]

Umm, Psion, I've got 50 charges in my wands of Arcane Eye and D Door. 15 encounters MAX per level (and that's pretty generous). I'm good for 3 levels, quite possibly more.

20000 gp for 3 levels of indestructable scout, plus surprise in every single encounter. Or, I can have a rogue. A 5th level party can afford to do this (barely). A 7th level party, no problem. A 12th level party? This is pocket change.

Again, I shouldn't be able to out do the rogue with a couple of spells.

 

[Psion]

Umm, Psion, I've got 50 charges in my wands of Arcane Eye and D Door.

Um, Hussar, that's money you are throwing away.

20000 gp for 3 levels of indestructable scout, plus surprise in every single encounter. Or, I can have a rogue. A 5th level party can afford to do this (barely).

Currently playing in a campaign with a 5th psion attempting to afford dorjes (same as wands), I really do beg to differ. As it is, I have to debate with myself what power I am going to put in a dorje. Would I make a knock dorje (for that matter, even take knock as a power) with a competent rogue in the party? Not a freakin' chance; it'd be the first power off the list.

At 12th level... the absolute nature of knock as written and it's low comparative cost does make your position more compelling. In that case, I really do recommend the aforementioned house rules if this becomes a problem.